View Poll Results: Should businesses be allowed to not violate their their conscience/religious belief?

Voters
19. You may not vote on this poll
  • The Jewish owned bakery can refuse to make a Adolph Hitler birthday cakes.

    16 84.21%
  • The Jewish owned bakery has to make Adolph Hitler birthday cakes.

    2 10.53%
  • The black hardware store owner can refuse to sell 4x4 lumber and gas cans to the KKK

    11 57.89%
  • The black hardware store owner has to sell 4x4 lumber and gas cans to the KKK

    5 26.32%
  • The pro-choice owned print shop can refuse to make pro-life pamphlets

    11 57.89%
  • The pro-choice owned print shop has to make pro-life pamphlets

    3 15.79%
  • The anti-2nd amendment owned convention center can refuse to rent space to the NRA

    11 57.89%
  • The anti-2nd amendment owned convention center has to rent space to the NRA.

    4 21.05%
  • A christian,Jewsih or Muslim owned restaurant can refuse to cater a gay wedding

    12 63.16%
  • A Christian,Jewish or Muslim owned restaurant has to cater a gay wedding.

    5 26.32%
Multiple Choice Poll.
Page 5 of 10 FirstFirst ... 34567 ... LastLast
Results 41 to 50 of 97

Thread: Should businesses be allowed to not violate their their conscience/religious belief?

  1. #41
    Sage

    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    Florida
    Last Seen
    Today @ 08:35 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Liberal
    Posts
    22,506

    Re: Should businesses be allowed to not violate their their conscience/religious beli

    Quote Originally Posted by faithful_servant View Post
    You assume that the business owner wants to insult anyone or is seeking some kind of satisfaction. Why do you think that they feel this way?? If there some part of you that empathizes with this kind of thing??
    Because that is always the reason for bigots to discriminate. It wouldn't make sense for them to turn down money if they don't get to put people they don't like down. It's not as if they are on a mission to purge the world of sinners. You don't believe that do you?

  2. #42
    Sage
    Mycroft's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Last Seen
    Today @ 11:06 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Conservative
    Posts
    25,147

    Re: Should businesses be allowed to not violate their their conscience/religious beli

    Quote Originally Posted by iguanaman View Post
    Because that is always the reason for bigots to discriminate. It wouldn't make sense for them to turn down money if they don't get to put people they don't like down. It's not as if they are on a mission to purge the world of sinners. You don't believe that do you?
    I think you are barking up the wrong tree here.

    A person doesn't have to be actively working against a class of people to decline to do business with them. And, maybe unlike you, some people might not place earning money to a higher regard than their personal convictions.
    TANSTAAFL

    “An armed society is a polite society.”
    ― Robert A. Heinlein, Beyond This Horizon

  3. #43
    Sage

    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    Florida
    Last Seen
    Today @ 08:35 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Liberal
    Posts
    22,506

    Re: Should businesses be allowed to not violate their their conscience/religious beli

    Quote Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
    I think you are barking up the wrong tree here.

    A person doesn't have to be actively working against a class of people to decline to do business with them. And, maybe unlike you, some people might not place earning money to a higher regard than their personal convictions.
    Give me a break. This not a case of people not doing business with sinners, that is never a problem. Personal hatred is the reason for all discrimination and that is why they always tell them the reason for the rejection. There would no point in it if they couldn't feel superior and make gays out as second class citizens.

  4. #44
    Sage
    Mycroft's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Last Seen
    Today @ 11:06 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Conservative
    Posts
    25,147

    Re: Should businesses be allowed to not violate their their conscience/religious beli

    Quote Originally Posted by iguanaman View Post
    Give me a break. This not a case of people not doing business with sinners, that is never a problem. Personal hatred is the reason for all discrimination and that is why they always tell them the reason for the rejection. There would no point in it if they couldn't feel superior and make gays out as second class citizens.
    "personal hatred"..."feel superior"..."second class citizens"...Yep, you got all the buzz words in there. Feels good to project, doesn't it? Anyone with personal convictions that you don't agree with are guilty of all those things, right?

    Reminds me of that other stupid thing...

    TANSTAAFL

    “An armed society is a polite society.”
    ― Robert A. Heinlein, Beyond This Horizon

  5. #45
    Educator Helvidius's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Good ol' US of A
    Last Seen
    01-31-17 @ 11:41 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Libertarian
    Posts
    735

    Re: Should businesses be allowed to not violate their their conscience/religious beli

    Quote Originally Posted by Paschendale View Post
    There is no such thing as a gay wedding. There is just a wedding, and if your problem is based on the genders of the people getting married, then you are discriminating based on identity.
    I think saying there is no such thing as a gay wedding, for purposes of this discussion, is merely semantics.

    And you may be discriminating, but you are not discriminating against the identity of the customer, as you had previously stated. So the question becomes, is it discrimination against the customer that really concerns you? If a baker says, no matter your sexual preference, I will not make a cake for a gay wedding, is there really discrimination against the person? Are you not then discriminating against someone for their belief/idea in the sanctity of gay marriage?

    If I walk in and say I'd like a cake celebrating Pearl Harbor as it is considered a holiday in my religion, and you refuse... Are you not discriminating against my religion? If you have a policy that you do not serve to anyone who believes that, and an entire religion believes that, are you discriminating against the idea or the people? At what point does your idea vs. people argument become so entangled that one cannot decipher between the two?

    And if you argue you don't have to serve because it is the "idea" that you wish to discriminate against, are you not opening Pandora's box for all sorts of discrimination?
    Mr. Madison, what you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.

  6. #46
    Sage
    cpwill's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    USofA
    Last Seen
    Today @ 11:14 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Conservative
    Posts
    56,614

    Re: Should businesses be allowed to not violate their their conscience/religious beli

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    You probably should have read your links. In the first link, Justice Alito refers to it as "a legal fiction". That fiction only applies to certain types of businesses, and nowhere in the two rulings referenced does it say that businesses have a conscience. In fact, your links fail altogether to counter what I pointed out, which is essentially, words have meanings. A business does not have a conscience. It's owner does. This might legally allow them exception to certain laws, but not others. Would you care to try again, with less fail?
    The business and it's owner are indistinguishable as regards rights, which is what both I and my links pointed out to you. People do not lose their rights when they either open or business, or band together in an organization.
    “In America we have a two-party system,” a Republican congressional staffer told a visiting group of Russian legislators. “There is the stupid party. And there is the evil party. I am proud to be a member of the stupid party. Periodically, the two parties get together and do something that is both stupid and evil. This is called: bipartisanship."

  7. #47
    Sage
    cpwill's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    USofA
    Last Seen
    Today @ 11:14 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Conservative
    Posts
    56,614

    Re: Should businesses be allowed to not violate their their conscience/religious beli

    Quote Originally Posted by Montecresto View Post
    Right, we should dream up hypotheticals all day long with which to pigeon hole people with, or play gotcha
    Well, no. But I think it is usefull to demonstrate that many of those willing to ride roughshod over Christian business owners are not (I suspect) coming to this from a logical series of deduction, but rather supporting the side they empathize with the most. You see a homosexual being "discriminated against" by a Christian business owner, you sympathize with his or her plight, you find justifications for your desire to support them. The actual principle of suborning others closest, most personal, areas of individual sovereignty to your desire to make sure that no one ever has to feel different or unwanted, ever, isn't (see thread results) something that receives universal support.
    “In America we have a two-party system,” a Republican congressional staffer told a visiting group of Russian legislators. “There is the stupid party. And there is the evil party. I am proud to be a member of the stupid party. Periodically, the two parties get together and do something that is both stupid and evil. This is called: bipartisanship."

  8. #48
    Liberal Fascist For Life!


    Redress's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Georgia
    Last Seen
    Today @ 10:36 PM
    Lean
    Very Liberal
    Posts
    92,920
    Blog Entries
    2

    Re: Should businesses be allowed to not violate their their conscience/religious beli

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    The business and it's owner are indistinguishable as regards rights, which is what both I and my links pointed out to you. People do not lose their rights when they either open or business, or band together in an organization.
    That is not what the law says. You need to try and read a bit more. Let me give you a helpful example: let's say you are Amish, and very much so. You run a butchershop. You have religious opposition to modern technology. Does that exempt you from having to use modern testing and cleanliness equipment?
    We became a great nation not because we are a nation of cynics. We became a great nation because we are a nation of believers - Lindsey Graham

    Quote Originally Posted by Fiddytree View Post
    Uh oh Megyn...your vagina witchcraft is about ready to be exposed.

  9. #49
    Sage
    Montecresto's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Last Seen
    03-13-16 @ 10:59 PM
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    24,561

    Re: Should businesses be allowed to not violate their their conscience/religious beli

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    Well, no. But I think it is usefull to demonstrate that many of those willing to ride roughshod over Christian business owners are not (I suspect) coming to this from a logical series of deduction, but rather supporting the side they empathize with the most. You see a homosexual being "discriminated against" by a Christian business owner, you sympathize with his or her plight, you find justifications for your desire to support them. The actual principle of suborning others closest, most personal, areas of individual sovereignty to your desire to make sure that no one ever has to feel different or unwanted, ever, isn't (see thread results) something that receives universal support.
    Well sure, I won't disagree with that. That's why there's final arbitrators like the Supreme Court and lower courts, which we then all have to abide by, and the unhappy ones need to then use political means to force a change, if they can.
    Killing one person is murder, killing 100,000 is foreign policy

  10. #50
    Sage
    cpwill's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    USofA
    Last Seen
    Today @ 11:14 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Conservative
    Posts
    56,614

    Re: Should businesses be allowed to not violate their their conscience/religious beli

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    That is not what the law says. You need to try and read a bit more. Let me give you a helpful example: let's say you are Amish, and very much so. You run a butchershop. You have religious opposition to modern technology. Does that exempt you from having to use modern testing and cleanliness equipment?
    our Rights of Conscience, like all our rights, are not limitless - they have endpoints when they reach a certain level of burden on others. The famous example is that you can't yell fire in a theater - you are not allowed to exercise your right to free speech in ways that irresponsibly creates risk to the lives and limbs of others. Deuce has brought up his pilot retesting (he's not allowed to fly without it) - the risk of a dangerous pilot to others is enough to justify overriding his individual objections, whatever they stem from; exercise of Deuce's rights do not overcome that level of burden to others. When creating public accommodation laws in order to break Jim Crow, we had to override individual rights because the burden placed on blacks by Jim Crow was systemic - an entire legal and social framework designed to bar Blacks from being able to access entire industries / services. Depending on the particulars, the butcher in your example is imposing such a burden on others - risking their lives and certainly their health. What is the comparable burden being placed on Homosexuals that would justify overriding individual rights?
    “In America we have a two-party system,” a Republican congressional staffer told a visiting group of Russian legislators. “There is the stupid party. And there is the evil party. I am proud to be a member of the stupid party. Periodically, the two parties get together and do something that is both stupid and evil. This is called: bipartisanship."

Page 5 of 10 FirstFirst ... 34567 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •