View Poll Results: Should businesses be allowed to not violate their their conscience/religious belief?

Voters
19. You may not vote on this poll
  • The Jewish owned bakery can refuse to make a Adolph Hitler birthday cakes.

    16 84.21%
  • The Jewish owned bakery has to make Adolph Hitler birthday cakes.

    2 10.53%
  • The black hardware store owner can refuse to sell 4x4 lumber and gas cans to the KKK

    11 57.89%
  • The black hardware store owner has to sell 4x4 lumber and gas cans to the KKK

    5 26.32%
  • The pro-choice owned print shop can refuse to make pro-life pamphlets

    11 57.89%
  • The pro-choice owned print shop has to make pro-life pamphlets

    3 15.79%
  • The anti-2nd amendment owned convention center can refuse to rent space to the NRA

    11 57.89%
  • The anti-2nd amendment owned convention center has to rent space to the NRA.

    4 21.05%
  • A christian,Jewsih or Muslim owned restaurant can refuse to cater a gay wedding

    12 63.16%
  • A Christian,Jewish or Muslim owned restaurant has to cater a gay wedding.

    5 26.32%
Multiple Choice Poll.
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Thread: Should businesses be allowed to not violate their their conscience/religious belief?

  1. #31
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    Re: Should businesses be allowed to not violate their their conscience/religious beli

    Quote Originally Posted by joG View Post
    Joining a group or signing a contract is no more "an intrinsic part of a person's identity" in the one or the other case. So if I may refuse participation in the pagan rite for reasons of conscience in the one case why not in the other? I do not see your argument. As a matter of fact, by your logic it might even be worse to refuse the KKK pair your assistance, as you would not even be acting on religious conscience but personal dislike.
    You're right. You don't understand what I'm saying.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal View Post
    I'm not confused about the issue of asking a business for a specialized product, but whether there's any difference between discriminating against an individual or an organization that represents that individual.
    Organizations and individuals have different rights. They also conduct business differently. An organization doesn't go into a shop to buy something. A person does.
    Liberté. Égalité. Fraternité.

  2. #32
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    Re: Should businesses be allowed to not violate their their conscience/religious beli

    Quote Originally Posted by Paschendale View Post
    You're right. You don't understand what I'm saying.
    .....
    Ahh! That is the problem. You don't worry about the meaning of words like where you refer to my saying that I "do not see your argument" by assuming I had said that I did not "understand" what you said. That is a fun game children like to play. But usually they boar of it by the time they can read.

  3. #33
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    Re: Should businesses be allowed to not violate their their conscience/religious beli

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Blaylock View Post
    Actually the Bill of Rights (specifically the First Amendment) very strongly supports your position. It is not rationally possible to reconcile the abuse of the power of government to force anyone to violate his conscience and to engage in any business that he does not want to engage in; with the freedoms of expression, religion, and association that are upheld by the First Amendment. The Fourth and Fifth Amendments reinforce the property rights that are relevant to this issue, with regard to the right to be secure in one's property, to not be deprived of property or liberty without due process of law, and to not have one's property taken for public use without just compensation. Remember that a business is the property of its owners; and its owners have the same rights with regard thereto as with any other property.
    Thank you for correcting me. You are right, of course. The Bill of Rights does protect the individual from such encroachment from the government.
    TANSTAAFL

    “Certain types of loudmouthism should be a capital offense among decent people.” ― Robert A. Heinlein, The Moon is a Harsh Mistress

  4. #34
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    Re: Should businesses be allowed to not violate their their conscience/religious beli

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    Indeed. It is well known that once you decide to engage in business, you give up all of your Constitutional protections. That's why if you run (for example) a small business out of your home office the police can conduct what would otherwise be illegal search and seizures, and you can be forced to quarter troops in it, and if you are an employee of a business, you have no complaint against the NSA tapping your phone (after all, you are engaged in business, are you not?).



    Oh. Wait.... It turns out that in fact, legally, businesses are indeed people, and the Supreme Court has repeatedly and recently reinforced this doctrine.



    Seriously. The argument that "No no no, small business owners aren't people, so it's okay if we trample their rights" argument is one of the weaker items I've seen brought to bear. You'd be better off shifting to the "everyone who doesn't agree with me is secretly racist" argument.
    You probably should have read your links. In the first link, Justice Alito refers to it as "a legal fiction". That fiction only applies to certain types of businesses, and nowhere in the two rulings referenced does it say that businesses have a conscience. In fact, your links fail altogether to counter what I pointed out, which is essentially, words have meanings. A business does not have a conscience. It's owner does. This might legally allow them exception to certain laws, but not others. Would you care to try again, with less fail?
    We became a great nation not because we are a nation of cynics. We became a great nation because we are a nation of believers - Lindsey Graham

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    Uh oh Megyn...your vagina witchcraft is about ready to be exposed.

  5. #35
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    Re: Should businesses be allowed to not violate their their conscience/religious beli

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    Hm. Now that would be an interesting conundrum to put them in. A good poll question, methinks.
    Right, we should dream up hypotheticals all day long with which to pigeon hole people with, or play gotcha. People can and do refuse to do business on stated reasons other than the real reasons, all the time. That can never be eliminated all together.
    Killing one person is murder, killing 100,000 is foreign policy

  6. #36
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    Re: Should businesses be allowed to not violate their their conscience/religious beli

    Quote Originally Posted by iguanaman View Post
    That sort of defeats the purpose of discriminating doesn't it? Lying about your reasons simply denies you of the money for the sale without the satisfaction of insulting the customer because of his race or lifestyle. Without the "statement" the business simple loses money which is why this hasn't and won't work as a solution.
    You assume that the business owner wants to insult anyone or is seeking some kind of satisfaction. Why do you think that they feel this way?? If there some part of you that empathizes with this kind of thing??
    Our nation has not always lived up to its ideals, yet those ideals have never ceased to guide us. They expose our flaws, and lead us to mend them. We are the beneficiaries of the work of the generations before us and it is each generation's responsibility to continue that work. - Laura Bush

  7. #37
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    Re: Should businesses be allowed to not violate their their conscience/religious beli

    Quote Originally Posted by Paschendale View Post
    The problem stems from some people's religions wanting to attack people based on their identity.
    Being unwilling to participate in and support that which one knows to be immoral is not the same thing as “attacking” someone else who engages in that immorality. One certainly has more rights and authority regarding one's own conscience, and how one will act in accordance with it, than one has over someone else's conscience.


    And, as an aside, why should someone who chooses to make blatant immorality part of his identity not expect to be “attacked” for it?
    The five great lies of the Left Wrong:
    We can be Godless and free. • “Social justice” through forced redistribution of wealth. • Silencing religious opinions counts as “diversity”. • Freedom without moral and personal responsibility. • Civilization can survive the intentional undermining of the family.

  8. #38
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    Re: Should businesses be allowed to not violate their their conscience/religious beli

    Quote Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
    Thank you for correcting me. You are right, of course. The Bill of Rights does protect the individual from such encroachment from the government.
    At least that is its intent.

    Unfortunately, it doesn't do much good when government chooses to openly disregard it, and those who make that choice are not held properly accountable for their malfeasance. In my opinion, the greatest weakness in the Constitution is that it lacks “teeth”, such that corrupt public servants feel free to disregard it with impunity when they have an agenda that cannot be reconciled therewith.
    The five great lies of the Left Wrong:
    We can be Godless and free. • “Social justice” through forced redistribution of wealth. • Silencing religious opinions counts as “diversity”. • Freedom without moral and personal responsibility. • Civilization can survive the intentional undermining of the family.

  9. #39
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    Re: Should businesses be allowed to not violate their their conscience/religious beli

    Quote Originally Posted by Paschendale View Post
    In all your examples but the last, the answer is that the business can refuse. In all those cases, the business is refusing to promulgate an idea. In the last, the business is refusing based on the identity of the customer. You can discriminate ideas all you like. You just can't discriminate people. The baker won't make a Hitler cake for anyone. The print shop won't make anti-abortion pamphlets for anyone. The NRA and the KKK aren't people, they're organizations. Contracts with organizations are different than shopkeeper rules. You might be able to turn away a member of one of those groups in your shop, though. I don't know if accommodation laws cover membership in an organization. I think they do, but it's late and I don't feel like looking it up right now. I think they should, though it might conflict with a shopkeeper's sense of personal safety with the KKK example., since . But I know that they do cover anything that is intrinsic to a person, and that (wrongfully) includes religion.



    As above, discriminate against ideas, just not against kinds of people.
    Let us say a business will not discriminate against gay people, just gay weddings. So a gay man walks into the bakery, they have no problem filling his order for a birthday cake. A straight person walks in and asks the bakery to make a cake she is bringing as a gift to her gay friend's wedding. The bakery refuses, stating it is against their religious beliefs.

    Since the bakery is not discriminating on the basis of the customer, would you find this acceptable?
    Mr. Madison, what you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.

  10. #40
    Uncanny
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    Re: Should businesses be allowed to not violate their their conscience/religious beli

    Quote Originally Posted by Helvidius View Post
    Let us say a business will not discriminate against gay people, just gay weddings. So a gay man walks into the bakery, they have no problem filling his order for a birthday cake. A straight person walks in and asks the bakery to make a cake she is bringing as a gift to her gay friend's wedding. The bakery refuses, stating it is against their religious beliefs.

    Since the bakery is not discriminating on the basis of the customer, would you find this acceptable?
    There is no such thing as a gay wedding. There is just a wedding, and if your problem is based on the genders of the people getting married, then you are discriminating based on identity.
    Liberté. Égalité. Fraternité.

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