View Poll Results: Should businesses be allowed to not violate their their conscience/religious belief?

Voters
19. You may not vote on this poll
  • The Jewish owned bakery can refuse to make a Adolph Hitler birthday cakes.

    16 84.21%
  • The Jewish owned bakery has to make Adolph Hitler birthday cakes.

    2 10.53%
  • The black hardware store owner can refuse to sell 4x4 lumber and gas cans to the KKK

    11 57.89%
  • The black hardware store owner has to sell 4x4 lumber and gas cans to the KKK

    5 26.32%
  • The pro-choice owned print shop can refuse to make pro-life pamphlets

    11 57.89%
  • The pro-choice owned print shop has to make pro-life pamphlets

    3 15.79%
  • The anti-2nd amendment owned convention center can refuse to rent space to the NRA

    11 57.89%
  • The anti-2nd amendment owned convention center has to rent space to the NRA.

    4 21.05%
  • A christian,Jewsih or Muslim owned restaurant can refuse to cater a gay wedding

    12 63.16%
  • A Christian,Jewish or Muslim owned restaurant has to cater a gay wedding.

    5 26.32%
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Thread: Should businesses be allowed to not violate their their conscience/religious belief?

  1. #21
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    Re: Should businesses be allowed to not violate their their conscience/religious beli

    Quote Originally Posted by faithful_servant View Post
    I think that business owners simply need to be smarter about how they refuse service. A simple "Sorry, but I can't accommodate that request at the moment." and nothing more said is all that they should ever do. If someone demands an explanation, the response should be "Sorry, but I can't accommodate that request at the moment." IMO, a business owner should have the right to refuse to provide their services to anyone and quite simply put, they don't owe anyone an explanation for their business decisions. If a business sticks to this approach, then the only way someone gets bent out of shape is by assuming the business owner's motivation for the decision.
    That sort of defeats the purpose of discriminating doesn't it? Lying about your reasons simply denies you of the money for the sale without the satisfaction of insulting the customer because of his race or lifestyle. Without the "statement" the business simple loses money which is why this hasn't and won't work as a solution.

  2. #22
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    Re: Should businesses be allowed to not violate their their conscience/religious beli

    How about a real example where a hooker decides she doesn't want to do black people.

    It doesn't get more personal or discriminatory than that.

  3. #23
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    Re: Should businesses be allowed to not violate their their conscience/religious beli

    "Your rights end where my nose begins."

    Problem is, sometimes one's rights and another's nose overlap. Which takes precedence then, the rights or the nose?
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    Re: Should businesses be allowed to not violate their their conscience/religious beli

    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal View Post
    I'm kind of fuzzy on the kkk (as a group) angle. Would I be able to legally discriminate against a political organization versus an individual? I dug up a story in which a business owner was successfully sued for refusing to sell to/serve a Klan member.
    Yeah, I'm not entirely certain, either. If it's "I won't sell to you because you're part of this organization", it's probably not okay. But if you want a bunch of "I hate niggers and Jews" posters, then you're out of luck, because we don't make those at all, regardless of who asks, that's probably okay. Ideas vs identity.

    The problem stems from some people's religions wanting to attack people based on their identity.
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    Re: Should businesses be allowed to not violate their their conscience/religious beli

    Quote Originally Posted by Paschendale View Post
    Yeah, I'm not entirely certain, either. If it's "I won't sell to you because you're part of this organization", it's probably not okay. But if you want a bunch of "I hate niggers and Jews" posters, then you're out of luck, because we don't make those at all, regardless of who asks, that's probably okay. Ideas vs identity.

    The problem stems from some people's religions wanting to attack people based on their identity.
    I'm not confused about the issue of asking a business for a specialized product, but whether there's any difference between discriminating against an individual or an organization that represents that individual.

  6. #26
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    Re: Should businesses be allowed to not violate their their conscience/religious beli

    Quote Originally Posted by Paschendale View Post
    Sexual orientation is an intrinsic part of a person's identity. Membership in an organization is not. They are two different things. Likewise, there is no such thing as a "KKK wedding" and there's really no such thing as a "gay wedding" either. There's just a wedding. And if your objection is based around a message espoused by an organization, that's wholly different from objecting because of the genders of the people getting married. You're drawing a false equivalence.
    Joining a group or signing a contract is no more "an intrinsic part of a person's identity" in the one or the other case. So if I may refuse participation in the pagan rite for reasons of conscience in the one case why not in the other? I do not see your argument. As a matter of fact, by your logic it might even be worse to refuse the KKK pair your assistance, as you would not even be acting on religious conscience but personal dislike.

  7. #27
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    Re: Should businesses be allowed to not violate their their conscience/religious beli

    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal View Post
    I'm kind of fuzzy on the kkk (as a group) angle. Would I be able to legally discriminate against a political organization versus an individual? I dug up a story in which a business owner was successfully sued for refusing to sell to/serve a Klan member.
    Me too. I would allow refusals on all the other possibilities.

    I would quickly allow a refusal on the black owner / KKK kustomer example as well if the klansmen directly told the owner that the gas can and lumber was for as cross burning "ceremony", or if he showed up in a KKK t-shirt or kustomized kkk "regalia".

    But... a KKK member or a gay simply wanting to buy lumber or cake mix and not telling the owner what it is for? I would say the business is obligated to serve them unless they can show a negative business impact. Maybe, KKK customer later boasted on his Face Book page where he bought the stuff from, and what he used it for.

    Quote Originally Posted by faithful_servant View Post
    I think that business owners simply need to be smarter about how they refuse service. A simple "Sorry, but I can't accommodate that request at the moment." and nothing more said is all that they should ever do. If someone demands an explanation, the response should be "Sorry, but I can't accommodate that request at the moment."
    Unoffically, I think that is how refusals have been discretely handled for a long time. Either that or:

    Customer: "Hey Soul Food owner, I want you to cater my rollicking red neck party (we love ribs). You are going to love the "Bow Hunt'in 'BO game we have planned"
    Soul Food Owner: Wow, I"ll call you back some time later....
    Customer: Hey, you never called back
    Soul Food Owner: Guess I forgot- probably make me pretty unreliable huh?
    Last edited by Cryptic; 04-07-15 at 11:51 AM.

  8. #28
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    Re: Should businesses be allowed to not violate their their conscience/religious beli

    Quote Originally Posted by jamesrage View Post
    Should businesses be allowed to not violate their their conscience/religious belief? Or should they be forced to violate their conscience or religious beliefs as a the price of doing business?

    The Jewish owned bakery can refuse to make a Adolph Hitler birthday cakes.
    The Jewish owned bakery has to make Adolph Hitler birthday cakes.
    The black hardware store owner can refuse to sell 4x4 lumber and gas cans to the KKK
    The black hardware store owner has to sell 4x4 lumber and gas cans to the KKK
    The pro-choice owned print shop can refuse to make pro-life pamphlets
    The pro-choice owned print shop has to make pro-life pamphlets
    The anti-2nd amendment owned convention center can refuse to rent space to the NRA
    The anti-2nd amendment owned convention center has to rent space to the NRA.
    A christian,Jewsih or Muslim owned restaurant can refuse to cater a gay wedding
    A Christian,Jewish or Muslim owned restaurant has to cater a gay wedding.

    Many people seem to be under the impression that any and all forms of discrimination are a bad thing.I do not think a gay or veteran owned print shop should be forced to make "God Hates Fags" signs for the infamous Westboro gang who runs a provoke and sue scam at the funerals of solders and other people. Nor do I think a gun store owner should be forced to sell guns to someone who gives him the creeps.I do not want to be served by a male waiter at a Hooters restaurant. I am sure women who go to Chip and Dales strip clubs do not want to see a female stripper dole dancing or a fat slob shaking his junk that he can't see anymore.
    Here's the problem I have with the poll, you list along with gays, Hitler and the KKK. Being gay harms NO ONE.
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  9. #29
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    Re: Should businesses be allowed to not violate their their conscience/religious beli

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    Business != person. That is, businesses do not have a brain, nor a conscience.
    Indeed. It is well known that once you decide to engage in business, you give up all of your Constitutional protections. That's why if you run (for example) a small business out of your home office the police can conduct what would otherwise be illegal search and seizures, and you can be forced to quarter troops in it, and if you are an employee of a business, you have no complaint against the NSA tapping your phone (after all, you are engaged in business, are you not?).



    Oh. Wait.... It turns out that in fact, legally, businesses are indeed people, and the Supreme Court has repeatedly and recently reinforced this doctrine.



    Seriously. The argument that "No no no, small business owners aren't people, so it's okay if we trample their rights" argument is one of the weaker items I've seen brought to bear. You'd be better off shifting to the "everyone who doesn't agree with me is secretly racist" argument.
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  10. #30
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    Re: Should businesses be allowed to not violate their their conscience/religious beli

    Quote Originally Posted by AliHajiSheik View Post
    How about a real example where a hooker decides she doesn't want to do black people.

    It doesn't get more personal or discriminatory than that.
    Hm. Now that would be an interesting conundrum to put them in. A good poll question, methinks.
    Worth noting, Democrats: President Trump will have a Pen and a Phone. #Precedent.

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