View Poll Results: Should businesses be allowed to not violate their their conscience/religious belief?

Voters
19. You may not vote on this poll
  • The Jewish owned bakery can refuse to make a Adolph Hitler birthday cakes.

    16 84.21%
  • The Jewish owned bakery has to make Adolph Hitler birthday cakes.

    2 10.53%
  • The black hardware store owner can refuse to sell 4x4 lumber and gas cans to the KKK

    11 57.89%
  • The black hardware store owner has to sell 4x4 lumber and gas cans to the KKK

    5 26.32%
  • The pro-choice owned print shop can refuse to make pro-life pamphlets

    11 57.89%
  • The pro-choice owned print shop has to make pro-life pamphlets

    3 15.79%
  • The anti-2nd amendment owned convention center can refuse to rent space to the NRA

    11 57.89%
  • The anti-2nd amendment owned convention center has to rent space to the NRA.

    4 21.05%
  • A christian,Jewsih or Muslim owned restaurant can refuse to cater a gay wedding

    12 63.16%
  • A Christian,Jewish or Muslim owned restaurant has to cater a gay wedding.

    5 26.32%
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Thread: Should businesses be allowed to not violate their their conscience/religious belief?

  1. #11
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    Re: Should businesses be allowed to not violate their their conscience/religious beli

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Blaylock View Post
    I do not believe it is ever justifiable to use the force of law to compel this of anyone.
    In every other case, we are talking about a merchant being asked to provide goods or services that are specifically in support of something that that merchant opposes. well you should be happy thats not going on then.
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  2. #12
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    Re: Should businesses be allowed to not violate their their conscience/religious beli

    Quote Originally Posted by jamesrage View Post
    Should businesses be allowed to not violate their their conscience/religious belief? Or should they be forced to violate their conscience or religious beliefs as a the price of doing business?

    The Jewish owned bakery can refuse to make a Adolph Hitler birthday cakes.
    The Jewish owned bakery has to make Adolph Hitler birthday cakes.
    The black hardware store owner can refuse to sell 4x4 lumber and gas cans to the KKK
    The black hardware store owner has to sell 4x4 lumber and gas cans to the KKK
    The pro-choice owned print shop can refuse to make pro-life pamphlets
    The pro-choice owned print shop has to make pro-life pamphlets
    The anti-2nd amendment owned convention center can refuse to rent space to the NRA
    The anti-2nd amendment owned convention center has to rent space to the NRA.
    A christian,Jewsih or Muslim owned restaurant can refuse to cater a gay wedding
    A Christian,Jewish or Muslim owned restaurant has to cater a gay wedding.

    Many people seem to be under the impression that any and all forms of discrimination are a bad thing.I do not think a gay or veteran owned print shop should be forced to make "God Hates Fags" signs for the infamous Westboro gang who runs a provoke and sue scam at the funerals of solders and other people. Nor do I think a gun store owner should be forced to sell guns to someone who gives him the creeps.I do not want to be served by a male waiter at a Hooters restaurant. I am sure women who go to Chip and Dales strip clubs do not want to see a female stripper dole dancing or a fat slob shaking his junk that he can't see anymore.
    First of all, it might be interesting to note that companies do not have a conscience. The owner and the people working there do. So the question should rightly be, whether a citizen may be forced to act against her conscience.

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    Re: Should businesses be allowed to not violate their their conscience/religious beli

    Quote Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
    When it comes to two or more people/entities entering into an agreement or contract, any involved party has the right to refuse to be a part for any reason they feel is important to them.

    The government has no right to dictate otherwise...and don't even bring up any blather about the Bill of Rights. Those ONLY apply to the government...not to the people.
    Which might mean that we have overshot and need to roll back a number of laws.

  4. #14
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    Re: Should businesses be allowed to not violate their their conscience/religious beli

    Quote Originally Posted by Paschendale View Post
    In all your examples but the last, the answer is that the business can refuse. In all those cases, the business is refusing to promulgate an idea. In the last, the business is refusing based on the identity of the customer. You can discriminate ideas all you like. You just can't discriminate people. The baker won't make a Hitler cake for anyone. The print shop won't make anti-abortion pamphlets for anyone. The NRA and the KKK aren't people, they're organizations. Contracts with organizations are different than shopkeeper rules. You might be able to turn away a member of one of those groups in your shop, though. I don't know if accommodation laws cover membership in an organization. I think they do, but it's late and I don't feel like looking it up right now. I think they should, though it might conflict with a shopkeeper's sense of personal safety with the KKK example., since . But I know that they do cover anything that is intrinsic to a person, and that (wrongfully) includes religion.

    As above, discriminate against ideas, just not against kinds of people.
    Okay, let's take the KKK/gay example and change it a little. A KKK wedding with all the paraphernalia and a SSM one? In both cases it is people. In one case the word "SSM" and in the other "KKK" is on the cake. You might have a different opinion of the two, but otherwise?

  5. #15
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    Re: Should businesses be allowed to not violate their their conscience/religious beli

    The wording of the poll question and the options are tortured and selective beyond belief, but I voted anyway for all the good it'll do.

    Ultimately it was crafted with a misunderstanding of the definition of discrimination.
    Last edited by Cardinal; 04-07-15 at 07:15 AM.

  6. #16
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    Re: Should businesses be allowed to not violate their their conscience/religious beli

    Quote Originally Posted by joG View Post
    Okay, let's take the KKK/gay example and change it a little. A KKK wedding with all the paraphernalia and a SSM one? In both cases it is people. In one case the word "SSM" and in the other "KKK" is on the cake. You might have a different opinion of the two, but otherwise?
    Sexual orientation is an intrinsic part of a person's identity. Membership in an organization is not. They are two different things. Likewise, there is no such thing as a "KKK wedding" and there's really no such thing as a "gay wedding" either. There's just a wedding. And if your objection is based around a message espoused by an organization, that's wholly different from objecting because of the genders of the people getting married. You're drawing a false equivalence.
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    Re: Should businesses be allowed to not violate their their conscience/religious beli

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    Business != person. That is, businesses do not have a brain, nor a conscience. Your premise starts out wrong and makes it an impossible question to answer.
    You know that the OP is talking about a business being the person who owns the business, so why act the fool and play stupid games with semantics?
    Our nation has not always lived up to its ideals, yet those ideals have never ceased to guide us. They expose our flaws, and lead us to mend them. We are the beneficiaries of the work of the generations before us and it is each generation's responsibility to continue that work. - Laura Bush

  8. #18
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    Re: Should businesses be allowed to not violate their their conscience/religious beli

    Quote Originally Posted by Paschendale View Post
    Sexual orientation is an intrinsic part of a person's identity. Membership in an organization is not. They are two different things. Likewise, there is no such thing as a "KKK wedding" and there's really no such thing as a "gay wedding" either. There's just a wedding. And if your objection is based around a message espoused by an organization, that's wholly different from objecting because of the genders of the people getting married. You're drawing a false equivalence.
    I'm kind of fuzzy on the kkk (as a group) angle. Would I be able to legally discriminate against a political organization versus an individual? I dug up a story in which a business owner was successfully sued for refusing to sell to/serve a Klan member.
    Last edited by Cardinal; 04-07-15 at 09:54 AM.

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    Re: Should businesses be allowed to not violate their their conscience/religious beli

    I think that business owners simply need to be smarter about how they refuse service. A simple "Sorry, but I can't accommodate that request at the moment." and nothing more said is all that they should ever do. If someone demands an explanation, the response should be "Sorry, but I can't accommodate that request at the moment." IMO, a business owner should have the right to refuse to provide their services to anyone and quite simply put, they don't owe anyone an explanation for their business decisions. If a business sticks to this approach, then the only way someone gets bent out of shape is by assuming the business owner's motivation for the decision.
    Our nation has not always lived up to its ideals, yet those ideals have never ceased to guide us. They expose our flaws, and lead us to mend them. We are the beneficiaries of the work of the generations before us and it is each generation's responsibility to continue that work. - Laura Bush

  10. #20
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    Re: Should businesses be allowed to not violate their their conscience/religious beli

    Quote Originally Posted by faithful_servant View Post
    I think that business owners simply need to be smarter about how they refuse service. A simple "Sorry, but I can't accommodate that request at the moment." and nothing more said is all that they should ever do. If someone demands an explanation, the response should be "Sorry, but I can't accommodate that request at the moment." IMO, a business owner should have the right to refuse to provide their services to anyone and quite simply put, they don't owe anyone an explanation for their business decisions. If a business sticks to this approach, then the only way someone gets bent out of shape is by assuming the business owner's motivation for the decision.
    I don't think many of us doubt that's going on already.

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