View Poll Results: What political issue is the most contentious?

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  • Abortion

    18 33.33%
  • Gay marriage

    3 5.56%
  • Gun control

    2 3.70%
  • Budget/spending

    9 16.67%
  • Immigration

    5 9.26%
  • Separation of church and state

    5 9.26%
  • Taxation

    2 3.70%
  • War on drugs

    0 0%
  • Death penalty

    0 0%
  • Other

    10 18.52%
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Thread: What is the most contentious issue in American politics?

  1. #81
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    Re: What is the most contentious issue in American politics?

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    I find it interesting that you do not see the natural contradiction between those two statements. Slavery was ubiquitous, and timeless, and therefore the responsibility of the one belief system that decided to end it.



    I'm not sure what you think that you're demonstrating here, other than people who materially benefited from slavery sought reasons for defending their actions...

    ...which they would not have had to do in any other culture.
    I quoted that to demonstrate that EVERYBODY was doing it, and from the very beginning that the Christian church capitalised on its benefits as well, and had the "holy scripture" as justification. As pointed out earlier, it wasn't until about 1980 that the Mormon church, under societal pressure and stagnation discontinued the teaching of the curse on black people as a heritage from Ham. Also that teaching, along with the biblical endorsement of slavery further illustrates the bibles fallacy.

    To the second quote, yes Christians used their own scripture to justify centuries of humanitarian abuse. And you're still repeating the falsehood that slavery was ended by Christianity. While there were certainly Christians in the charge, they weren't alone, and by the time it came to a head in America, it had long been outlawed elsewhere anyway, and it took a very bloody uncivil war, which was very supported by Christians, to end the institution.
    Killing one person is murder, killing 100,000 is foreign policy

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    Re: What is the most contentious issue in American politics?

    I really hope it's budget/spending or taxation or health care, but the prez candidates continue to obsess over the social issues, even the ones that will be irreversibly resolved by the time they take office (like gay marriage)

    I don't think as a country we're mature or educated enough to turn this around. The town hall catastrophe during health care reform convinced me of that.

  3. #83
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    Re: What is the most contentious issue in American politics?

    Quote Originally Posted by Montecresto View Post
    I quoted that to demonstrate that EVERYBODY was doing it, and from the very beginning that the Christian church capitalised on its benefits as well, and had the "holy scripture" as justification.
    Not only was everyone doing it, everyone had been doing it since time immemorial and no one saw anything odd about it. Except Christians, who from the very beginning first demanded that it's abuses be ended, and finally, demanded that the institution itself be ended. You only get the idea that we should get rid of Slavery from Christianity, and you had it there from the Early Church. That Christians chose not to follow the teachings of the New Testament in slave trading and abusing slaves does not alter that basic historical fact.

    As pointed out earlier, it wasn't until about 1980 that the Mormon church, under societal pressure and stagnation discontinued the teaching of the curse on black people as a heritage from Ham
    I could care less about Mormon theology. We are talking about Christianity.

    Also that teaching, along with the biblical endorsement of slavery further illustrates the bibles fallacy.
    Not really. It illustrates that it is not written to conform to 21st Century Western proprieties.

    To the second quote, yes Christians used their own scripture to justify centuries of humanitarian abuse
    Sure. And the Westboro people tried to use it to justify hatred of the military who defended (among other things) gay rights. Again, I'm not sure what point you think you are making here.

    And you're still repeating the falsehood that slavery was ended by Christianity.
    that is because - historically - it was. The Abolition movement as formed was explicitly Christian in nature and leadership. Its opponents accused it of violating the separation of Church and State. It forced several denominations to split. William Wilberforce, John Brown, Harriet Beecher Stowe, John Woolman, John Wesley, all of them were pretty open about the fact that they were motivated to end Slavery because they felt it was Gods' will.

    The Christian arguments (all men are equal, all men should serve each other rather than seek to be served, slave trading is sinful) about mankind are the necessary precursors to the decision that slavery must therefore be stamped out.

    While there were certainly Christians in the charge, they weren't alone, and by the time it came to a head in America, it had long been outlawed elsewhere anyway
    Sure. In Britain. By guess who?



    and it took a very bloody uncivil war, which was very supported by Christians, to end the institution.
    Sure. Again, you are still failing to make the point that I think you think you are making.
    “In America we have a two-party system,” a Republican congressional staffer told a visiting group of Russian legislators. “There is the stupid party. And there is the evil party. I am proud to be a member of the stupid party. Periodically, the two parties get together and do something that is both stupid and evil. This is called: bipartisanship."

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    Re: What is the most contentious issue in American politics?

    Quote Originally Posted by radcen View Post
    But the question was the most contentious, not the most serious or most destructive.
    One of the rules of medicine is to treat the underlying cause and the symptoms will resolve.

  5. #85
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    Re: What is the most contentious issue in American politics?

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    Not only was everyone doing it, everyone had been doing it since time immemorial and no one saw anything odd about it. Except Christians, who from the very beginning first demanded that it's abuses be ended, and finally, demanded that the institution itself be ended. You only get the idea that we should get rid of Slavery from Christianity, and you had it there from the Early Church. That Christians chose not to follow the teachings of the New Testament in slave trading and abusing slaves does not alter that basic historical fact.



    I could care less about Mormon theology. We are talking about Christianity.



    Not really. It illustrates that it is not written to conform to 21st Century Western proprieties.



    Sure. And the Westboro people tried to use it to justify hatred of the military who defended (among other things) gay rights. Again, I'm not sure what point you think you are making here.



    that is because - historically - it was. The Abolition movement as formed was explicitly Christian in nature and leadership. Its opponents accused it of violating the separation of Church and State. It forced several denominations to split. William Wilberforce, John Brown, Harriet Beecher Stowe, John Woolman, John Wesley, all of them were pretty open about the fact that they were motivated to end Slavery because they felt it was Gods' will.

    The Christian arguments (all men are equal, all men should serve each other rather than seek to be served, slave trading is sinful) about mankind are the necessary precursors to the decision that slavery must therefore be stamped out.



    Sure. In Britain. By guess who?





    Sure. Again, you are still failing to make the point that I think you think you are making.
    You're arguing in your same old circle. Christianity's involvement in eventual abolition doesn't excuse its eighteen centuries of the humanitarian failure of using slavery as a mechanism of prosperity. And further excusing it by suggesting that because everybody was doing it, Christianity didn't recognise the institutional horror, when they were suppose to be gods gift to humanity, carrying the gospel to the world, which obviously couldn't have included slavery. Eighteen centuries to figure out that it needed to be stamped out, really. Sure isn't anything unique.
    Killing one person is murder, killing 100,000 is foreign policy

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    Re: What is the most contentious issue in American politics?

    Quote Originally Posted by Montecresto View Post
    You're arguing in your same old circle. Christianity's involvement in eventual abolition doesn't excuse its eighteen centuries of the humanitarian failure of using slavery as a mechanism of prosperity.
    Sure. And Christians involving themselves in the Slave Trade does not change the historical fact that the Abolitionist movement originated in Christianity, and was built on Christian principles.

    And further excusing it by suggesting that because everybody was doing it, Christianity didn't recognise the institutional horror, when they were suppose to be gods gift to humanity
    No - Christ was Gods' gift to humanity. Christians are those portions of humanity that recognize that we are such failures that we are left utterly reliant on a Savior. And Christians recognized (and in the New Testament, are ordered to correct) the potential institutional horrors from day 1.

    carrying the gospel to the world, which obviously couldn't have included slavery. Eighteen centuries to figure out that it needed to be stamped out, really. Sure isn't anything unique.
    what other major culture did it?
    “In America we have a two-party system,” a Republican congressional staffer told a visiting group of Russian legislators. “There is the stupid party. And there is the evil party. I am proud to be a member of the stupid party. Periodically, the two parties get together and do something that is both stupid and evil. This is called: bipartisanship."

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    Re: What is the most contentious issue in American politics?

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    what other major culture did it?
    Zoroastrians banned slavery almost a thousand years before the OT was even recorded by scribes. Slaves were emancipated in China in 1730.
    "You're the only person that decides how far you'll go and what you're capable of." - Ben Saunders (Explorer and Endurance Athlete)

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    Re: What is the most contentious issue in American politics?

    Quote Originally Posted by SouthernDemocrat View Post
    Zoroastrians banned slavery almost a thousand years before the OT was even recorded by scribes.
    This I will look into

    Slaves were emancipated in China in 1730.
    But this makes me suspicious of the original claim, because slavery continued in China well past this date.


    ...In the 17th century Qing Dynasty, there was a hereditarily servile people called Booi Aha (Manchu:booi niyalma; Chinese transliteration: 包衣阿哈), which is a Manchu word literally translated as "household person" and sometimes rendered as "nucai" or "slaves".

    In his book China Marches West, Peter C. Perdue stated:"In 1624(After Nurhachi's invasion of Liaodong) "Chinese households....while those with less were made into slaves."[27] The Manchu was establishing close personal and paternalist relationship between masters and their slaves, as Nurhachi said, "The Master should love the slaves and eat the same food as him".[28] Perdue further pointed out that booi aha "did not correspond exactly to the Chinese category of "bond-servant slave" (Chinese:奴僕); instead, it was a relationship of personal dependency on a master which in theory guaranteed close personal relationships and equal treatment, even though many western scholars would directly translate "booi" as "bond-servant".[27]

    Various classes of Booi
    booi niru a Manchu word (Chinese:包衣佐領), meaning Neiwufu Upper Three Banner's platoon leader of about 300 men .
    Booi guanlin a Manchu word (Chinese:包衣管領), meaning the manager of booi doing all the domestic duties of Neiwufu.
    Booi amban is also a Manchu word, meaning high official, (Chinese:包衣大臣).
    Estate bannerman (Chinese:庄头旗人) are those renegade Chinese who joined the Jurchen, or original civilians-soldiers working in the fields. These people were all turned into booi aha, or field slaves.
    Chinese Muslim (Tungans) Sufis who were charged with practicing xiejiao (heterodox religion), were punished by exile to Xinjiang and being sold as a slave to other Muslims, such as the Sufi begs.[29]

    Han chinese who committed crimes such as those dealing with opium became slaves to the begs, this practice was administered by Qing law.[30] Most Chinese in Altishahr were exile slaves to Turkestani Begs.[31] Ironically, while free Chinese merchants generally did not engage in relationships with East Turkestani women, some of the Chinese slaves belonging to begs, along with Green Standard soldiers, Bannermen, and Manchus, engaged in affairs with the East Turkestani women that were serious in nature.[32]

    The Qing dynasty procured 420 women and girl slaves, all of them Mongol, to service Oirat Mongol bannermen stationed in Xinjiang in 1764.[33] Many Torghut Mongol boys and girls were sold to Central Asian markets or on the local Xinjiang market to native Turkestanis.[34]

    Here are two accounts of slavery given by two Westerners in the late 19th century and early 20th century:

    "In the houses of wealthy citizens, it is not unusual to find twenty to thirty slaves attending upon a family. Even citizens in the humbler walks of life deem it necessary to have each a slave or two. The price of a slave varies, of course, according to age, health, strength, and general appearance. The average price is from fifty to one hundred dollars, but in time of war, or revolution, poor parents, on the verge of starvation, offer their sons and daughters for sale at remarkably low prices. I remember instances of parents, rendered destitute by the marauding bands who invested the two southern Kwangs in 1854–55, offering to sell their daughters in Canton for five dollars apiece. . . .

    The slavery to which these unfortunate persons are subject, is perpetual and hereditary, and they have no parental authority over their offspring. The great-grandsons of slaves, however, can, if they have sufficient means, purchase their freedom. . . .

    Masters seem to have the same uncontrolled power over their slaves that parents have over their children. Thus a master is not called to account for the death of a slave, although it is the result of punishment inflicted by him."[35]

    "In former times slaves were slain and offered in sacrifice to the spirit of the owner when dead, or by him to his ancestors: sometimes given as a substitute to suffer the death penalty incurred by his owner or in fulfilment of a vow. It used to be customary in Kuei-chou (and Szü-chuan too, I believe) to inter living slaves with their dead owners; the slaves were to keep a lamp burning in the tomb....

    "Slavery exists in China, especially in Canton and Peking.... It is a common thing for well-to-do people to present a couple of slave girls to a daughter as part of her marriage dowery [sic]. Nearly all prostitutes are slaves....."[36]...
    “In America we have a two-party system,” a Republican congressional staffer told a visiting group of Russian legislators. “There is the stupid party. And there is the evil party. I am proud to be a member of the stupid party. Periodically, the two parties get together and do something that is both stupid and evil. This is called: bipartisanship."

  9. #89
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    Re: What is the most contentious issue in American politics?

    Amerika is so far gone that there is no saving the nation we once knew from our founding. So what's the point of squabbling over minutia when the ship is foundered to the point that it can't be saved??

    With no rule of law to constrain the government - how can liberty survive?? The answer is, of course it can't survive - yet, no one wants to talk about it... it's more titillating to get all worked up over abortion and gay marriage.

    Amerika abandoned the rule of law decades ago, and with it abandoned republican government in favor of "democracy"... we are now dying the death that every democracy in history has died. As James Madison observed, there has never been a democracy in history that did not commit suicide - violent in their deaths.

    Amerikans have been made completely ignorant of history, the principles of freedom, and the ability to rationally sift their way thru the chaff of misinformation that they are daily bombarded with. We are in debt to the tune of over 100% of GDP, we are engaged in perpetual war, our government brazenly operates outside the bounds of the Constitution - and the masses cheer them on, many states and municipalities are on the road to bankruptcy, our currency is being devalued by the second, on and on...

    It's a sinking ship - a fast sinking ship, and there's no saving her. The Establishment manuevered us into this straight jacket for very logical reasons, and when they eventually pull the plug on the economy, and on the dollar, the jig will be up. Then of course, those who created the problems to begin with, will be Johnny on the spot with their "solutions".

    Of course those solutions will be tainted in such a way as to afford the Establishment complete control of the government, and the government complete control of the people.

    It's the same old story throughout history - over and over again, going back millenia. Too bad Amerikans weren't exposed to these history lessons in the government schools they attended

  10. #90
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    Re: What is the most contentious issue in American politics?

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    Sure. And Christians involving themselves in the Slave Trade does not change the historical fact that the Abolitionist movement originated in Christianity, and was built on Christian principles.



    No - Christ was Gods' gift to humanity. Christians are those portions of humanity that recognize that we are such failures that we are left utterly reliant on a Savior. And Christians recognized (and in the New Testament, are ordered to correct) the potential institutional horrors from day 1.



    what other major culture did it?
    Still you're circular argument. Christianity doesn't get any brownie points for ceasing bad behavior, something that the true religion should have known all along, lol. Without Christians taking that gospel message to the world, the world would be unaware of that two thousand year aged mythical figure. There's nothing unique, or credit worthy.
    Killing one person is murder, killing 100,000 is foreign policy

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