View Poll Results: What political issue is the most contentious?

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  • Abortion

    18 33.33%
  • Gay marriage

    3 5.56%
  • Gun control

    2 3.70%
  • Budget/spending

    9 16.67%
  • Immigration

    5 9.26%
  • Separation of church and state

    5 9.26%
  • Taxation

    2 3.70%
  • War on drugs

    0 0%
  • Death penalty

    0 0%
  • Other

    10 18.52%
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Thread: What is the most contentious issue in American politics?

  1. #71
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    Re: What is the most contentious issue in American politics?

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    Agreed - it doesn't. Just as that fact also does not alter the fact that the anti-slavery movement was Christian in origin and early expression.
    Ok, well my sides hurting by now. So we can both credit Christians for bringing slavery to America, and then for playing a part in its abolition.

    If you’ve got an ugly or uncomfortable historical record that you’d like to have whitewashed, then Christian fundamentalists are the ideologues for you. Here’s their latest bit of doggerel: Christians deserve the credit for abolishing African slavery!
    - See more at: Did Christianity Abolish Slavery?
    Killing one person is murder, killing 100,000 is foreign policy

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    Re: What is the most contentious issue in American politics?

    Quote Originally Posted by Montecresto View Post
    Ok, well my sides hurting by now
    I'm sorry to hear that - you bust a rib?

    So we can both credit Christians for bringing slavery to America, and then for playing a part in its abolition.
    ....Sort of. Christianity pretty clearly defines slave-trading as sinful.

    1 Timothy 1: 8 We know that the law is good if one uses it properly. 9 We also know that the law is made not for the righteous but for lawbreakers and rebels, the ungodly and sinful, the unholy and irreligious, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers, 10 for the sexually immoral, for those practicing homosexuality, for slave traders and liars and perjurers—and for whatever else is contrary to the sound doctrine 11 that conforms to the gospel concerning the glory of the blessed God, which he entrusted to me.


    So to the extent that the cross-Atlantic slave trade consisted of actual slave trade (which was the vast majority of it), slavery came to the America's in contradiction to Christianity's teachings. Had someone crossed over with slaves they already had, I agree, they would not have been violating Christian biblical direction.

    If you’ve got an ugly or uncomfortable historical record that you’d like to have whitewashed, then Christian fundamentalists are the ideologues for you
    I don't believe in a literal seven day creation and tend to apply textual criticism to the Bible, so no, they're not really thrilled about me. But I am a history nut, and I do see where the anti-slavery movement came from.

    Here’s their latest bit of doggerel: Christians deserve the credit for abolishing African slavery!
    - See more at: Did Christianity Abolish Slavery?
    Ah. An atheist advocacy blog.


    And a very poorly argued one. You admit that slavery is ubiquitous and then shift immediately to claiming that Christianity instituted the practice? Someone has timeline issues.
    “In America we have a two-party system,” a Republican congressional staffer told a visiting group of Russian legislators. “There is the stupid party. And there is the evil party. I am proud to be a member of the stupid party. Periodically, the two parties get together and do something that is both stupid and evil. This is called: bipartisanship."

  3. #73
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    Re: What is the most contentious issue in American politics?

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    I'm sorry to hear that - you bust a rib?



    ....Sort of. Christianity pretty clearly defines slave-trading as sinful.

    1 Timothy 1: 8 We know that the law is good if one uses it properly. 9 We also know that the law is made not for the righteous but for lawbreakers and rebels, the ungodly and sinful, the unholy and irreligious, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers, 10 for the sexually immoral, for those practicing homosexuality, for slave traders and liars and perjurers—and for whatever else is contrary to the sound doctrine 11 that conforms to the gospel concerning the glory of the blessed God, which he entrusted to me.


    So to the extent that the cross-Atlantic slave trade consisted of actual slave trade (which was the vast majority of it), slavery came to the America's in contradiction to Christianity's teachings. Had someone crossed over with slaves they already had, I agree, they would not have been violating Christian biblical direction.



    I don't believe in a literal seven day creation and tend to apply textual criticism to the Bible, so no, they're not really thrilled about me. But I am a history nut, and I do see where the anti-slavery movement came from.



    Ah. An atheist advocacy blog.


    And a very poorly argued one. You admit that slavery is ubiquitous and then shift immediately to claiming that Christianity instituted the practice? Someone has timeline issues.
    No, just laughing. Instituted it in North America, important distinction you ignored.

    According to Robert Dabney (1820-1898), the Southern Presbyterian, in his book ‘A Defense of Virgina and the South’ The Pilgrim Fathers saw themselves as God’s chosen people and were therefore at liberty to treat the native Indians as God had allowed Israel to treat its pagan neighbours, ‘the pious ‘Puritan Fathers’ found it convenient to assume that they were God’s chosen Israel and the pagans about them were Amalek and Amorites. They hence deduced their righteous title to exterminate or enslave the Indians.... The Promptitude with which the ‘Puritan Fathers’ embarked in this business [the African slave trade] may be comprehended, when it is stated that the Desire [the first slave ship to Africa] sailed upon her voyage in June 1637 [only 17 years after the Pilgrim Fathers landed]....the commerce of New England was born of the slave trade. p33.
    Last edited by Montecresto; 04-09-15 at 11:33 PM.
    Killing one person is murder, killing 100,000 is foreign policy

  4. #74
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    Re: What is the most contentious issue in American politics?

    Quote Originally Posted by Montecresto View Post
    No, just laughing. Instituted it in North America, important distinction you ignored.
    well then he is incorrect there as well. Native Americans also practiced slavery.


    If you are going to say "well he meant instituted the African slave trade", I'm going to point out that it had been going on for centuries before the Europeans got involved. If he's wants to say "the translntic trade of African slaves to North America", then okay, but that's (again) not really different than what had already been going on for centuries.


    Europeans got involved - and I agree, it was contrary to the tenets of the New Testament when they did so and they shouldn't have. And they were amazingly brutal, and treated their slaves (generally) in ways that completely contradicted the Christian teachings to serve your slaves and treat them as your equal and your brother. But he is trying to impute more origination on them than can be historically defended.
    Last edited by cpwill; 04-09-15 at 11:37 PM.
    “In America we have a two-party system,” a Republican congressional staffer told a visiting group of Russian legislators. “There is the stupid party. And there is the evil party. I am proud to be a member of the stupid party. Periodically, the two parties get together and do something that is both stupid and evil. This is called: bipartisanship."

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    Re: What is the most contentious issue in American politics?

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    well then he is incorrect there as well. Native Americans also practiced slavery.


    If you are going to say "well he meant instituted the African slave trade", I'm going to point out that it had been going on for centuries before the Europeans got involved. If he's wants to say "the translntic trade of African slaves to North America", then okay, but that's (again) not really different than what had already been going on for centuries.


    Europeans got involved - and I agree, it was contrary to the tenets of the New Testament when they did so and they shouldn't have. And they were amazingly brutal, and treated their slaves (generally) in ways that completely contradicted the Christian teachings to serve your slaves and treat them as your equal and your brother. But he is trying to impute more origination on them than can be historically defended.
    Lol. Christian fingerprints are all over slavery.

    Historically, slavery was not just an Old Testament phenomenon. Slavery was practiced in every ancient Western culture: Egyptian, Babylonian, Greek, Roman and Israelite. Slavery was an integral part of ancient commerce, taxation, and temple religion.[4]

    In the book of Genesis, Noah condemns Ham and his descendents to perpetual servitude: "Cursed be Canaan! The lowest of slaves will he be to his brothers" (Gn 9:25). T. David Curp notes that this episode has been used to justify racialized slavery, since "Christians and even some Muslims eventually identified Ham's descendents as black Africans".[5] Anthony Pagden argued that "This reading of the Book of Genesis merged easily into a medieval iconographic tradition in which devils were always depicted as black. Later pseudo-scientific theories would be built around African skull shapes, dental structure, and body postures, in an attempt to find an unassailable argument—rooted in whatever the most persuasive contemporary idiom happened to be: law, theology, genealogy, or natural science—why one part of the human race should live in perpetual indebtedness to another."[6]

    Christian views on slavery - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    Killing one person is murder, killing 100,000 is foreign policy

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    Re: What is the most contentious issue in American politics?

    Big govt. Most of the choices listed are simply the symptoms.

  7. #77
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    Re: What is the most contentious issue in American politics?

    Quote Originally Posted by Montecresto View Post
    Lol. Christian fingerprints are all over slavery.

    Historically, slavery was not just an Old Testament phenomenon. Slavery was practiced in every ancient Western culture: Egyptian, Babylonian, Greek, Roman and Israelite. Slavery was an integral part of ancient commerce, taxation, and temple religion.
    I find it interesting that you do not see the natural contradiction between those two statements. Slavery was ubiquitous, and timeless, and therefore the responsibility of the one belief system that decided to end it.

    In the book of Genesis, Noah condemns Ham and his descendents to perpetual servitude: "Cursed be Canaan! The lowest of slaves will he be to his brothers" (Gn 9:25). T. David Curp notes that this episode has been used to justify racialized slavery, since "Christians and even some Muslims eventually identified Ham's descendents as black Africans".[5] Anthony Pagden argued that "This reading of the Book of Genesis merged easily into a medieval iconographic tradition in which devils were always depicted as black. Later pseudo-scientific theories would be built around African skull shapes, dental structure, and body postures, in an attempt to find an unassailable argument—rooted in whatever the most persuasive contemporary idiom happened to be: law, theology, genealogy, or natural science—why one part of the human race should live in perpetual indebtedness to another."[6]

    Christian views on slavery - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    I'm not sure what you think that you're demonstrating here, other than people who materially benefited from slavery sought reasons for defending their actions...

    ...which they would not have had to do in any other culture.
    “In America we have a two-party system,” a Republican congressional staffer told a visiting group of Russian legislators. “There is the stupid party. And there is the evil party. I am proud to be a member of the stupid party. Periodically, the two parties get together and do something that is both stupid and evil. This is called: bipartisanship."

  8. #78
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    Re: What is the most contentious issue in American politics?

    Quote Originally Posted by US Conservative View Post
    Big govt. Most of the choices listed are simply the symptoms.
    But the question was the most contentious, not the most serious or most destructive.
    Roger Rabbit: Yeah. Check the probate. Why, my Uncle Thumper had a problem with HIS probate, and he had to take these big pills, and drink lots of water.

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    Re: What is the most contentious issue in American politics?

    Quote Originally Posted by Montecresto View Post
    Lol. Christian fingerprints are all over slavery.

    Historically, slavery ...

    Exactly.

    Here are some quotes by learned men from the 19th century:
    "[Slavery] was established by decree of Almighty God...it is sanctioned in the Bible, in both Testaments, from Genesis to Revelation...it has existed in all ages, has been found among the people of the highest civilization, and in nations of the highest proficiency in the arts." Jefferson Davis, President of the Confederate States of America. 1,2

    "There is not one verse in the Bible inhibiting slavery, but many regulating it. It is not then, we conclude, immoral." Rev. Alexander Campbell

    "The right of holding slaves is clearly established in the Holy Scriptures, both by precept and example." Rev. R. Furman, D.D., Baptist, of South Carolina

    "The hope of civilization itself hangs on the defeat of Negro suffrage." A statement by a prominent 19th-century southern Presbyterian pastor, cited by Rev. Jack Rogers, moderator of the Presbyterian Church (USA).

    "The doom of Ham has been branded on the form and features of his African descendants. The hand of fate has united his color and destiny. Man cannot separate what God hath joined." United States Senator James Henry Hammond. 3

    1843: "In 1843, 1,200 Methodist ministers owned 1,500 slaves, and 25,000 members owned 208,000 slaves...the Methodist Church as a whole remained silent and neutral on the issue of slavery." 5
    US Christians in the mid 1800s were divided about the issue of Slavery.
    But the southern Christians still felt the Bible defended slavery and were against any abolition movement.

    1844: The General Conference of the Methodist Episcopal Church split into two conferences because of tensions over slavery and the power of bishops in the denomination. The two General Conferences, the Methodist Episcopal Church (North) and Methodist Episcopal church, South remained separate until a merger in 1939 created the Methodist Church. The latter became the present United Methodist Church as a result of subsequent mergers. 6

    <SNIP>

    Highlights of the abolition process from 1860 until now:

    1860: Ministers and laity of the Methodist Episcopal Church's Genesee Conference in western New York state were expelled from the church for insubordination. They left to form the Free Methodist Church of North America. They split over a variety of factors, including theological disagreements, the perceived worldliness of the original church, and slavery. Their leader "...Roberts and most of his followers were radical abolitionists in the years immediately prior to the Civil War, at a time when many within the Methodist Episcopal church were hesitant in their condemnation of the practice of slavery." The denomination continues today in the U.S., Canada and in countries around the world. 1

    1861: The Presbyterians had been able to remain united in spite of tensions created by the slavery issue. Shortly after the Civil War began, the Southern presbyteries of the United Presbyterian Church in the United States of America withdrew and organized the Presbyterian Church in the Confederate States (later renamed the Presbyterian Church in the United States). The split was healed in 1983 with the unification of these two bodies and the creation of the Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.).

    1861-1865: The Civil War (a.k.a. the war between the states) was fought, resulting in the greatest loss of life of any American war.


    1862-DEC-31: President Abraham Lincoln issued the Emancipation Proclamation on JAN-1. This is believed by many to have freed the slaves. Actually, it did not free a single slave. People in the Northern states who had been slaves had already been freed. Slaves in the South were within the Confederacy, and thus immune to Union proclamations. Still, it was of enormous symbolic significance
    Read more :


    What the Bible says about slavery

    Link part 2

    http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_slav1.htm
    Last edited by minnie616; 04-10-15 at 09:09 AM.
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    Re: What is the most contentious issue in American politics?

    Please explain to me what the Bible and slavery have to do with the OP's question.

    Geez, people, start your own thread.
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