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Thread: What is the most contentious issue in American politics?

  1. #61
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    Re: What is the most contentious issue in American politics?

    As long as the tea party side of the Republicans dominates the political agenda for the GOP and Obama is still in power, everything is contentious, even choosing a surgeon general and things that previous presidents did hundreds of times are suddenly the acts of pure evil if one believes the part of the GOP that is furthest away from "center".
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    Re: What is the most contentious issue in American politics?

    Quote Originally Posted by Montecresto View Post
    Lol, as much a Christian institution as any, and you credit them for its demise.
    That is correct. The Emancipation and Abolition Movements were explicitly Christian, both in Britain and here in the United States, and had long roots in the Christian tradition.

    Christian views on slavery are varied both regionally and historically. Slavery in various forms has been a part of the social environment for much of Christianity's history, spanning well over eighteen centuries. In the early years of Christianity, slavery was a normal feature of the economy and society.......

    Christian views on slavery - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    Hey, that's funny how you chose to chop the sentence there. Full sentence, of course, being:

    In the early years of Christianity, slavery was a normal feature of the economy and society in the Roman Empire, and this persisted in different forms and with regional differences well into the Middle Ages.
    Man. It would almost seem as though you were selectively editing...


    You may benefit from reading the rest of the piece. This bit, for example: only in Christianity did the idea develop that slavery was sinful and must be abolished.
    Last edited by cpwill; 04-09-15 at 03:53 PM.
    “In America we have a two-party system,” a Republican congressional staffer told a visiting group of Russian legislators. “There is the stupid party. And there is the evil party. I am proud to be a member of the stupid party. Periodically, the two parties get together and do something that is both stupid and evil. This is called: bipartisanship."

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    Re: What is the most contentious issue in American politics?

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    That is correct. The Emancipation and Abolition Movements were explicitly Christian, both in Britain and here in the United States, and had long roots in the Christian tradition.



    Hey, that's funny how you chose to chop the sentence there. Full sentence, of course, being:



    Man. It would almost seem as though you were selectively editing...


    You may benefit from reading the rest of the piece. This bit, for example: only in Christianity did the idea develop that slavery was sinful and must be abolished.
    Wtf!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Christianity's history, spanning well over eighteen centuries. read the whole damn thing. It starts with Christianity's early history, during the period of the Roman Empire and continues for 18 centuries. Furthermore, in the end, it wasn't JUST some Christians leading the abolitionist charge. And too, that doesn't excuse eighteen centuries of the Christian institution of slavery.
    Killing one person is murder, killing 100,000 is foreign policy

  4. #64
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    Re: What is the most contentious issue in American politics?

    Quote Originally Posted by Montecresto View Post
    Wtf!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    Surprised you, eh? That's what can happen sometimes when you don't read the sources you cite.

    Christianity's history, spanning well over eighteen centuries. read the whole damn thing.
    I did It didn't tell me anything I didn't already know - there was an anti-slavery bias in Christianity (and no other faith or belief system) from:

    Quote Originally Posted by 1 Timothy 1
    8 We know that the law is good if one uses it properly. 9 We also know that the law is made not for the righteous but for lawbreakers and rebels, the ungodly and sinful, the unholy and irreligious, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers, 10 for the sexually immoral, for those practicing homosexuality, for slave traders and liars and perjurers—and for whatever else is contrary to the sound doctrine 11 that conforms to the gospel concerning the glory of the blessed God, which he entrusted to me.
    and that yet it remained a debate within the Church (and no where else) for centuries. Yet generally, the spread of Christianity was marked by a reduction in slavery - it almost disappeared in Europe, though it was replaced by feudalism.


    From your source on the Abolitionist Movement:

    ...In particular, the effects of the Second Great Awakening resulted in many evangelicals working to see the theoretical Christian view, that all people are essentially equal, made more of a practical reality. Freedom of expression within the Western world also helped in enabling opportunity to express their position. Prominent among these abolitionists was Parliamentarian William Wilberforce in England, who wrote in his diary when he was 28 that, "God Almighty has set before me two great objects, the suppression of the Slave Trade and Reformation of Morals."[88] With others he labored, despite determined opposition, to finally abolish the British slave trade. The famous English preacher Charles Spurgeon had some of his sermons burned in America due to his censure of slavery, calling it "the foulest blot" and which "may have to be washed out in blood."[89] Methodist founder John Wesley denounced human bondage as "the sum of all villainies," and detailed its abuses.[90] In Georgia, primitive Methodists united with brethren elsewhere in condemning slavery. Many evangelical leaders in the United States such as Presbyterian Charles Finney and Theodore Weld, and women such as Harriet Beecher Stowe (daughter of abolitionist Lyman Beecher) and Sojourner Truth motivated hearers to support abolition. Finney preached that slavery was a moral sin, and so supported its elimination. "I had made up my mind on the question of slavery, and was exceedingly anxious to arouse public attention to the subject. In my prayers and preaching, I so often alluded to slavery, and denounced it.[91] Repentance from slavery was required of souls, once enlightened of the subject, while continued support of the system incurred "the greatest guilt" upon them.[92]...

    Roman Catholic statements also became increasingly vehement against slavery during this era. In 1741 Pope Benedict XIV condemned slavery generally. In 1815 Pope Pius VII demanded of the Congress of Vienna the suppression of the slave trade. In the Bull of Canonization of Peter Claver, one of the most illustrious adversaries of slavery, Pope Pius IX branded the "supreme villainy" (summum nefas) of the slave traders;[105]
    Ironically, in the United States, opposition to the Abolitionist movement accused it of violating the separation between Church and State .
    “In America we have a two-party system,” a Republican congressional staffer told a visiting group of Russian legislators. “There is the stupid party. And there is the evil party. I am proud to be a member of the stupid party. Periodically, the two parties get together and do something that is both stupid and evil. This is called: bipartisanship."

  5. #65
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    Re: What is the most contentious issue in American politics?

    Quote Originally Posted by molten_dragon View Post
    I'm curious what people think about this. What issue do you believe is the most contentious or divisive, one that the two sides are least likely to come to any sort of agreement or compromise about.
    RIGHT NOW... I would say gay marriage.

    Ask again in a year and it'll probably be something else.
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    In that sense the man is a freakin' genius.

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    Re: What is the most contentious issue in American politics?

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    That is correct. The Emancipation and Abolition Movements were explicitly Christian, both in Britain and here in the United States, and had long roots in the Christian tradition.



    Hey, that's funny how you chose to chop the sentence there. Full sentence, of course, being:



    Man. It would almost seem as though you were selectively editing...


    You may benefit from reading the rest of the piece. This bit, for example: only in Christianity did the idea develop that slavery was sinful and must be abolished.
    Abolishing slavery had NOTHING to do with religion - let alone Christianity. As Montecresto stated, slavery had been used by Christians for many centuries. So giving Christianity ANY credit for slavery abolishment is totally baseless.

    'However, you may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you. You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land. You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance. You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way. (Leviticus 25:44-46 NLT)'

    'When a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod so hard that the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished. If, however, the slave survives for a day or two, he is not to be punished, since the slave is his own property. (Exodus 21:20-21 NAB)'

    Slavery in the Bible

    Slavery ended because humanity evolved, both morally and economically, to the point that it just was not worth it any longer.

    It had, imo, NOTHING to do with religion or Christianity.

    Though I am quite sure once religious types of the time saw the winds of change blowing against slavery, they jumped on the bandwagon by finding a few passages in their Club Manifesto (Bible) to justify their new found abolitionist's bent...and then probably claimed it was 'God's will' or some other nonsense.
    Last edited by DA60; 04-09-15 at 07:38 PM.
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  7. #67
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    Re: What is the most contentious issue in American politics?

    Quote Originally Posted by DA60 View Post
    Abolishing slavery had NOTHING to do with religion - let alone Christianity.
    that is historically illiterate.

    As Montecresto stated, slavery had been used by Christians for many centuries. So giving Christianity ANY credit for slavery abolishment is totally baseless.
    Not only is this an incomplete historical picture, logically, your conclusion does not follow follow from your data.

    A quick example: The United States had slavery for many years. Therefore crediting any of the ending of slavery in North America to the United States is totally baseless.

    See how that doesn't make sense?

    Slavery was a debate within Christianity for centuries - and nowhere else. Those seeking to apply directions to Christians who were slaves in a society where slavery was a massive, accepted fact clashed with those seeking to apply the proscription that slave-trading was sinful and that in Christ all men were equal. Abolition was a theme from Christianity's earliest centuries - and nowhere else.

    'However, you may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you. You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land. You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance. You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way. (Leviticus 25:44-46 NLT)'
    That is Judaic law (so was the proscription to set slaves free every 7 years). The Christian texts that you are thinking of are:

    1 Corinthians 7
    21 Were you a slave when you were called? Don’t let it trouble you—although if you can gain your freedom, do so. 22 For the one who was a slave when called to faith in the Lord is the Lord’s freed person; similarly, the one who was free when called is Christ’s slave. 23 You were bought at a price; do not become slaves of human beings.

    or
    Ephesians 5
    5 Slaves, obey your earthly masters with respect and fear, and with sincerity of heart, just as you would obey Christ. 6 Obey them not only to win their favor when their eye is on you, but as slaves of Christ, doing the will of God from your heart. 7 Serve wholeheartedly, as if you were serving the Lord, not people, 8 because you know that the Lord will reward each one for whatever good they do, whether they are slave or free. 9 And masters, treat your slaves in the same way. Do not threaten them, since you know that he who is both their Master and yours is in heaven, and there is no favoritism with him.


    To the modern western view it seems a bit muddled - how can he not call for rebellion against slave owners, demand immediate emancipation, etc?

    Well, a couple of things. The New Testament Greek for slave (dou'lo) covers both the kinds of slaves that we would associate with slavery, bondservants, and some variants in between. In Roman slavery, it was common for slaves to work their way out of servitude or be freed upon their owners death - Cicero estimated that it took about 7 years for a slave to free him or her self, though plenty of work suggests that lengths of time varied, and that would have been a low estimate. After Spartacus' rebellion, the treatment of slaves changed in many sectors of the Roman empire for the worse, but that was not the environment in which Jesus preached or Paul wrote.

    The form of slavery Paul is addressing (or how he distinguishes within the variety of servitude covered under dou'lo) can be found in the Letter to Philemon, the Letter to the Ephesians, and the Letter to Timothy. The kind of trading that involves buying, trafficking, and selling human beings like chattel is sinful (1 Timothy 1:10), those who find themselves currently masters are to consider those who serve them as their equals and brothers (Philemon 1:16), and, in fact, are called upon to serve them (Ephesians 5:9).

    Like so much else, ancient Christianity sought to turn dou'lo on its head where it was found by replacing both resentment and abuse with love and service.

    Slavery ended because humanity evolved, both morally and economically, to the point that it just was not worth it any longer.
    according to the people who kick-started the movement to end it, and pushed that through in this country and in Britain, it ended because their Christian faith demanded that it do so. And they were considered religious fanatics for it.
    Last edited by cpwill; 04-09-15 at 08:18 PM.
    “In America we have a two-party system,” a Republican congressional staffer told a visiting group of Russian legislators. “There is the stupid party. And there is the evil party. I am proud to be a member of the stupid party. Periodically, the two parties get together and do something that is both stupid and evil. This is called: bipartisanship."

  8. #68
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    Re: What is the most contentious issue in American politics?

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    Surprised you, eh? That's what can happen sometimes when you don't read the sources you cite.



    I did It didn't tell me anything I didn't already know - there was an anti-slavery bias in Christianity (and no other faith or belief system) from:



    and that yet it remained a debate within the Church (and no where else) for centuries. Yet generally, the spread of Christianity was marked by a reduction in slavery - it almost disappeared in Europe, though it was replaced by feudalism.


    From your source on the Abolitionist Movement:



    Ironically, in the United States, opposition to the Abolitionist movement accused it of violating the separation between Church and State .
    The big surprise is in your attempt to dismiss the Christian institution of slavery on the merits that Quakers began to oppose it in the latter 1600's. The point being that it doesn't excuse centuries of Christian justification of slavery, particularly of black Africans because they were descendants of a biblically historic criminal. It wasn't until about 1980 that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints officially ceased to advance the notion.

    For many centuries slavery was perfectly acceptable to Christians. Christians had no doubt that it was divinely sanctioned, and they used a number of Old and New Testament quotations to prove their case. Looking at the relevant passages it is clear that the Bible does indeed endorse slavery. In the Old Testament God approved the practice and laid down rules for buyers and sellers (Exodus 21:1-11, Leviticus 25:44). Men are at liberty to sell their own daughters (Exodus 21:7). Slaves can be inherited (Leviticus 25:45-6). It is acceptable to beat slaves, since they are property — a master who beats his slave to death is not to be punished as long as the slave stays alive for a day or two, as the loss of the master's property is punishment enough:
    Killing one person is murder, killing 100,000 is foreign policy

  9. #69
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    Re: What is the most contentious issue in American politics?

    Quote Originally Posted by Montecresto View Post
    The big surprise is in your attempt to dismiss the Christian institution of slavery on the merits that Quakers began to oppose it in the latter 1600's. The point being that it doesn't excuse centuries of Christian justification of slavery, particularly of black Africans because they were descendants of a biblically historic criminal
    Agreed - it doesn't. Just as that fact also does not alter the fact that the anti-slavery movement was Christian in origin and early expression.
    “In America we have a two-party system,” a Republican congressional staffer told a visiting group of Russian legislators. “There is the stupid party. And there is the evil party. I am proud to be a member of the stupid party. Periodically, the two parties get together and do something that is both stupid and evil. This is called: bipartisanship."

  10. #70
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    Re: What is the most contentious issue in American politics?

    Quote Originally Posted by DA60 View Post
    Abolishing slavery had NOTHING to do with religion - let alone Christianity. As Montecresto stated, slavery had been used by Christians for many centuries. So giving Christianity ANY credit for slavery abolishment is totally baseless.

    'However, you may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you. You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land. You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance. You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way. (Leviticus 25:44-46 NLT)'

    'When a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod so hard that the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished. If, however, the slave survives for a day or two, he is not to be punished, since the slave is his own property. (Exodus 21:20-21 NAB)'

    Slavery in the Bible

    Slavery ended because humanity evolved, both morally and economically, to the point that it just was not worth it any longer.

    It had, imo, NOTHING to do with religion or Christianity.

    Though I am quite sure once religious types of the time saw the winds of change blowing against slavery, they jumped on the bandwagon by finding a few passages in their Club Manifesto (Bible) to justify their new found abolitionist's bent...and then probably claimed it was 'God's will' or some other nonsense.
    Haha, yeah, like just about everything else the bible is good for, you can both justify or condemn about anything. Those Christians such as the Quakers that opposed slavery, and considered it immoral were using bible scriptures to support their positions while Christians dependent upon it were citing all the scriptures that condoned it. But in the end, your right. It's about human evolution and democracy. Besides, even though both blacks and women were horribly persecuted in early American history, despite the very good constitution that acknowledge that humanity was entirely equal, more and more people were acknowledging the inevitable. President Washington struggled with the contradiction, realising that his wealth came from his slave holdings, never could bring himself to free them, but added it to his will that upon his death, they would be.

    Both France and England who had big trade in textiles with southern states, and may well have aided them during the American civil war were prevented by Lincoln's declaration that the war against states rights, was a war against slavery. Which of course by that time was already outlawed in both countries.
    Killing one person is murder, killing 100,000 is foreign policy

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