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Did the Ottoman Empire Commit Genocide Against the Armenians?

Did the Ottoman Empire Commit Genocide Against the Armenians?

  • Total voters
    37
I don't know about the scientific definition of the term genocide, but what the Ottomans have done to the Armenians is most certainly genocide by the socially-accepted definition, which is the systematic murder of a massive amount of people from a certain group. To claim otherwise is history revisionism pure and simple.

It is however quite absurd to be pointing the finger at Turkey for not recognizing the nature of their ancestors' atrocities against the Armenians when only 22 states on this planet recognize this historical fact, one of them being Armenia itself. (Others being Germany, Cyprus, Greece, the Vatican...)
 
Montecresto said:
To the bolded. Yes, and there's good reason for that shift to modern opinion on that, and this Armenian genocide is exactly one of.
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And that is the OP- Turkey did or did not commit Genocide.
 
Montecresto said:
Not sure I get your point JANFU?
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The Topic is Turkey- Not Rwanda - Not American Indians- Not Jews
Turkey and did they commit genocide.
I see the thread is all over the place.
Just sayin.
 
JANFU said:
The Topic is Turkey- Not Rwanda - Not American Indians- Not Jews
Turkey and did they commit genocide.
I see the thread is all over the place.
Just sayin.
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I see. Well, I took the poll, answered yes and threw in some recognition for others that get ignored as well.
 
Montecresto said:
I see. Well, I took the poll, answered yes and threw in some recognition for others that get ignored as well.
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I was not attacking you. i was saying we should stay on topic. What I see is clear evidence it was committed and I have been of that opion for years, and arguments against that cannot swim or walk.
 
Montecresto said:
I see. Well, I took the poll, answered yes and threw in some recognition for others that get ignored as well.
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One thing - Man is very good at killing. Not good at resoling a conflict before it happens. And off topic I shall go- The Iraq war was where many countries were suckered by Bush-Cheney and Powell.
 
JANFU said:
I was not attacking you. i was saying we should stay on topic. What I see is clear evidence it was committed and I have been of that opion for years, and arguments against that cannot swim or walk.
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I knew that, and agree, no worries.
 
JANFU said:
One thing - Man is very good at killing. Not good at resoling a conflict before it happens. And off topic I shall go- The Iraq war was where many countries were suckered by Bush-Cheney and Powell.
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And suckered in Libya, and almost in Syria, and may be in Iran, and hell, if they get their way, we'll be suckered into an unnecessary war with Russia, too!
 
Hatuey said:
This thread is about the Ottoman Empire in the 1910s Joko. Try and keep up?



Armenian Genocide of 1915: An Overview - New York Times



We're talking, once again, about the Ottoman Empire. Not the entire Armenian population. However, even if we were - your argument would be absurd too. It would mean there was not Rwandan Massacre because there are were many Tutsis in other countries of Africa who were not affected by the massacre.



Your continued need to ignore the subject title and try to make it about what you want to talk about makes you look like the revisionist you've already proven that you are Joko. Do you run into book clubs near your house and scream that they should be discussing the books you want to read too? Because that's what you're doing here. The thread is about the Armenian Genocide. Not the Genocide Joko Thinks We Should Talk About.
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You are who is ignoring the topic to just rant a single line declaring everything relevant is irrelevant. Nor do you want to discuss it in any relevant terms even at that time in history.

Nor are you consistent, but continue to contradict yourself. You claim 1.5 million civilian deaths equals "a genocide" of itself. When I point out the USA deliberately killed more Japanese and German civilians by carpet and firebombing civilian cities killing more than 1.5 million, you completely contradict claiming that doesn't count because it wasn't for the goal of totally exterminating all Japanese and Germans. Correct, it was to terrorize their civilians to break their will to fight. Any proof that wasn't the motives of the Ottoman Empire too?

The USA didn't have 40,000 Japanese and German non-uniformed guerilla fighters in the USA. Didn't have 150,000 Japanese and German soldiers on US soil. Didn't have 3 million German and Japanese civilians providing those fighters and soldiers, nor housing, feeding them and hiding them. Yet That was the situation with the Ottomans in relation to Armenians. Still, YOU claim what the Ottoman Empire did was "a genocide" and what the USA did wasn't. Just because you say so.

Why? Because of the American view that dropping bombs on civilians doesn't count while shooting civilians in the head does?

Nor do you want to discuss that Armenians WERE at war with the Ottoman Empire, including militarily and by acts of terrorism (non-uniformed), nor of "genocide" against Ottomans in the Balkins and Caucacus. You militantly resist discussing it in the context of the war, refuse to discuss the actions by the Armenians, nor even what the war was about. Certainly you don't want to discuss the persecution and subjugation of Ottomans that came after the war and what the Ottomans were fighting against either.

The British, French, USA and Russians were not coming to be liberators, they were coming to take the Ottoman Empire's land - and to subjugate all those people for themselves to take all their resources. Which is exactly what happened and is largely the basis for the boundaries to this day, other than WWII adjusted those. No, the Ottomans fighting against being overtake and ruled by the Western countries and Russia isn't relevant either to you. That Armenians were fighting as soldiers and as non-uniformed insurgents nearly 200,000 strong? That's irrelevant to you too.

The ONLY thing relevant to you is that you hate the Ottoman Empire. So, who the hell cares?

I hate what the Spanish did to the Caribbean peoples. I hate what white people did to NA. All sorts of genocides in history in reflection I hate. Do I like that the Ottomans killed Armenian civilians? No. Do I like that Ottoman civilians were killed in massive numbers prior to and during this in the Balkins and Caucacus? No. Do I like the subjugation of all those people by the Western powers and Russia? No. Do I like the Russian Genocide against Armenians? No.

What you absolutely declare is irrelevant is any relevancy to the topic of the Armenian genocide. You INSIST that you claim is irrelevant to anything - so then it is from your perspective. And if it is irrelevant to anything, why should anyone care in the slightest?

You hate Ottomans. REALLY REALLY hate Ottomans. Hate them totally. The only people you hate from that historical era too. We all got that. Why should anyone care if that's all there is to it?

Are you Armenian?
 
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Can I ask....

Why do some feel that Turkey *needs* to acknowledge it?

Is there anything gained by Turkey's acknowledgement of this 100 year old incident?
 
joko104 said:
You are who is ignoring the topic to just rant a single line declaring everything relevant is irrelevant. Nor do you want to discuss it in any relevant terms even at that time in history.

Nor are you consistent, but continue to contradict yourself. You claim 1.5 million civilian deaths equals "a genocide" of itself.
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That is patently false. I have said that there were policies in place which made what happened to the Armenians a genocide. You may want to try harder to misrepresent somebody's position. The rest of your post is absolute garbage based on a misrepresentation. :shrug:

You hate Ottomans. REALLY REALLY hate Ottomans. Hate them totally. The only people you hate from that historical era too. We all got that. Why should anyone care if that's all there is to it?
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It didn't take you long to get to this point, did it? Lol. It's getting old, Joko.
 
Would the USA do such a "genocide?"

The USA is attacked by Russia and China - massive numbers of their troops in the USA so limited application of our nuclear weapons. Numerous other countries join in with them including Mexico and many S. American countries as allies, including Latino Americans.

With this, 250,000 American Latinos engage in non-uniform killing of non-Latino Americans. 2 million American Latinos more join the Mexican military within the USA also at war with the USA. Latino civilians are housing, feeding, hiding, supporting and proving more non-uniformed insurgents and troops - and it increasingly clear that the USA is going to lose, all Americans except those who switched sides were going to be subjugated, hundreds of thousands imprisoned, American civilian and military leadership imprisoned, tortured or killed.

Do you believe the orders to the USA military would be "whatever you do, be nice to Latinos?" Or would it be to round them up, put them in concentration camps and use "extreme prejudice" towards Latino communities where the non-uniformed Latino "terrorists" were hiding and fighting out of?

Nothing REALLY has changes or every will about total war for which national survival and known subsequent subjugation, occupation and retribution by the invaders is known. The USA, any country in the world, would do little different than the Ottoman Empire. We know this because that is exactly what happens. It's happening in many places in the ME now. That is what ALWAYS happens.

Thus, the "Armenian genocide" isn't extra dark moment in human history. It is the reality of invasive wars. Always has been. Always will be. That's why full scale war is such a terrible thing and why civilians should do all they can to keep that from happening. The way to do that is to be SO militarily powerful no one tries - and then there won't be any war-based slaughters and genocides. Otherwise there will be.
 
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Hatuey said:
That is patently false. I have said that there were policies in place which made what happened to the Armenians a genocide. You may want to try harder to misrepresent somebody's position. The rest of your post is absolute garbage based on a misrepresentation. :shrug:



It didn't take you long to get to this point, did it? Lol. It's getting old, Joko.
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Yes, I am I replied that "policies in place that make a genocide possible" does not equate to ordering the genocide of an entire ethnic group. Your asserting a deliberate genocide happened by claiming it was made possible to happen is false logic.

The Western powers "had policies in place that made the Nazi holocausts possible." That does not mean the Western powers ordered or caused the holocaust. You're is just bad logic.

But, to keep it limited to JUST the Armenian genocide, the UK, France, USA and Russia had policies that made the Armenian "genocide" possible. Therefore, in your logic, they are responsible. In addition, had they not engaged in a war of conquest to take Ottoman Empire territory for themselves, there would have been no Armenian genocide, would there?

It is my position is that it was the aggressive imperial and colonial purpose attacks against the Ottoman Empire - and soliciting Armenians to join in with the allied powers - which Armenians did in massive numbers - combined with genocide against Ottomans in the Balkins and Caucacus - that caused the Armenian genocide.

Do you disagree that without the Western Powers and Russia proactively going to war for the purpose of taking Ottoman Empire territory there would have been no Armenian genocide? If not, why not? If so, then who is really to blame?

Or do you also claim the causes of the Armenian genocide is totally irrelevant?
 
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How many people have died for oil? It all began in WWI. The West in defeating the Ottoman Empire also seized and divided up all the oil of the ME.

Is THAT also irrelevant? Seems very relevant, to this day. What is relevant is what was learned and how to avoid such happening again. Without that, the discussion has little value.
 
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Caine said:
Can I ask....

Why do some feel that Turkey *needs* to acknowledge it?

Is there anything gained by Turkey's acknowledgement of this 100 year old incident?
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For one, Turkey didn't do the Armenian genocide, if that is what it was. Turkey didn't yet exist.

The USA does not admit genocide of NAs. Japan does not admit genocide of Chinese. I could go on and on and on with that. Instead, they tend to admit something really bad happened - but not a GENOCIDE - and then explain there were may other considerations adding "things were different back then." And things were different back then. Sort of different anyway, only because circumstances are different.
 
joko104 said:
Yes, I am I replied that "policies in place that make a genocide possible" does not equate to ordering the genocide of an entire ethnic group.
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So then you admit your initial presentation of my statements is absolute bull****? Good. The guy who coined the word acknowledged that it was inspired BY his observances of the Armenian genocide. Good grief, the Pashas knew that their policies would lead to the death of hundreds of thousands. Continuing to ignore that so you can focus on some imaginary notion that they needed to give an explicit order of genocide is absurd:

http://www.gomidas.org/uploads/Talaat Pashas Report on the Armenian Genocide.pdf

In the final analysis, the great majority of Ottoman Armenians were
deported in 1915, and the great majority of these deportees were killed
off through forced marches, privations, and outright massacres—as
attested and corroborated by eyewitness accounts.36 Talaat’s report clearly
shows that the deportation of Ottoman Armenians in 1915 was part of
an effort that aimed at the destruction of Armenians. The object of the
10 Talaat Pasha’s Report on the Armenian Genocide
authorities was not a population transfer (tehcir) but the destruction of
entire communities. This fact is quite apparent in the organization,
implementation, and outcome of Talaat’s policies, as can be seen in the
discrepancy between the number of Armenians who were deported, and
the number of deportees who were found in the resettlement zone in
1917. Talaat was well aware of this discrepancy since he closely supervised
deportations throughout 1915–16. As his 1917 report shows, although
over a million Armenians were deported, around 60,000 were counted in
the resettlement zone outlined by the Ottoman government, another
50,000 were found dispersed along deportation routes, and around
100,000 were within their home provinces. Practically all of these
survivors in the provinces were treated as captives and pressured to
assimilate as Muslim-Turks.
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Again, continuing to ignore the facts of the matter so you can focus on all the other things you feel need some nonsensical attention do not change the fact that the Ottoman Empire implemented a policy that deliberately sought out the destruction of the Armenians.

Your asserting a deliberate genocide happened by claiming it was made possible to happen is false logic.

The Western powers "had policies in place that made the Nazi holocausts possible." That does not mean the Western powers ordered or caused the holocaust. You're is just bad logic.

But, to keep it limited to JUST the Armenian genocide, the UK, France, USA and Russia had policies that made the Armenian "genocide" possible. Therefore, in your logic, they are responsible. In addition, had they not engaged in a war of conquest to take Ottoman Empire territory for themselves, there would have been no Armenian genocide, would there?

It is my position is that it was the aggressive imperial and colonial purpose attacks against the Ottoman Empire - and soliciting Armenians to join in with the allied powers - which Armenians did in massive numbers - combined with genocide against Ottomans in the Balkins and Caucacus - that caused the Armenian genocide.

Do you disagree that without the Western Powers and Russia proactively going to war for the purpose of taking Ottoman Empire territory - most notably oil - there would have been no Armenian genocide? If not, why not? If so, then who is really to blame?

Or do you also claim the causes of the Armenian genocide is totally irrelevant?
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Still trying to turn attention away from the subject matter? Knock yourself out.
 
Apocalypse said:
Honest question; What do they teach in Turkish history classes regarding the Armenians?
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smart jews always like turkey and you know why if you are good at history
 
Hatuey said:
So then you admit your initial presentation of my statements is absolute bull****? Good. The guy who coined the word acknowledged that it was inspired BY his observances of the Armenian genocide. Good grief, the Pashas knew that their policies would lead to the death of hundreds of thousands. Continuing to ignore that so you can focus on some imaginary notion that they needed to give an explicit order of genocide is absurd:

http://www.gomidas.org/uploads/Talaat Pashas Report on the Armenian Genocide.pdf



Again, continuing to ignore the facts of the matter so you can focus on all the other things you feel need some nonsensical attention do not change the fact that the Ottoman Empire implemented a policy that deliberately sought out the destruction of the Armenians.



Still trying to turn attention away from the subject matter? Knock yourself out.
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That report was written by the victorious British against a dead person of an non-existent government that was replaced by a government of his enemies overseen by the British.

Yeah, that's not bias source.

You really do avoid any real discussion, don't you? There is no actual point to what you are posting. If challenged on whether it technically was an order to kill 100% of Armenians, you divert to claim mass deaths of civilians equates to genocide generally. When then the messages are in general terms, you insist that no it is specific.

What is notable is that you declare any discussion of what has any relevant value is irrelevant, declaring your topic irrelevant other than to bandy over the definition of a word.

So, once again, since this is ONLY technically about a word, in YOUR words a policy known to result in the deaths of hundreds of thousands isn't a "genocide" in a war situation. It is a certainty of war. Thus, your definition of genocide is any policy that is known will result in hundreds of thousands of deaths. Since the Armenian "genocide" was during war, all your definition does is define what happens in big wars. Thus, all major wars are "genocide" and all major sides in WWI including the Ottoman Empire engaged in policies known will cause hundreds of thousands of deaths, ie your definition of "genocide."

What is the value of singling out the Ottomans for this within that definition in that same region in that same conflict? Absolutely none.
 
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The 1.5 million number is definitely disputed:

U.S. Ambassador Morgenthau was the source for the 1.5 million number. It should be noted though that Morgenthau was a racist, who believed that Turks were an inferior race and openly printed that Turks had “inferior blood.” One cannot expect accurate reporting from such a biased man, yet it is his reports on which much of the Armenian accounts are based on. Vartanian also refers to a remark by Adolf Hitler, as though somehow the psychotic ravings of a man known for exterminating the Jews can be relied on for accurate history.

He also asserts that “claims against the Armenians are purely anecdotal.” I highly doubt that the mass of evidence can be referred to as anecdotal: there are eyewitness accounts of Russian soldiers, demographic evidence, reports from Allied soldiers, photographic evidence, as well as testimonies from the Turkish refugees. Seventy American scholars -- including Prof. McCarthy of the University of Louisville, Prof. Bernard Lewis of Princeton, and Prof. Sandford Shaw of the University of California at Los Angeles -- testified in 1988 in front of the House International Committee that there was no genocide of Armenians. The Clinton Administration continues to back the Turkish people on this issue, because it knows the truth: there was no Armenian genocide.

Further, there is strong evidence that most Armenians died of disease and starvation. 10 times as Turks died of disease and starvation in that same war time frame.

The source of the 1.5 million number, the source being an open eugenics bigot who believed Turks were racially inferior, appears to trace back to a comment by Hitler in reference to his policy towards Jews, which is no scientific proof of anything and is just worthless hearsay by a maniac with no indication of what that hearsay source was - if anyone.

Ottomans definitely slaughtered a lot of Armenians. Probably more than Ottomans slaughtered by Armenians. Everyone was getting slaughtered in that region.

I will agree there were many atrocities including large scale ones against Armenians. But that there was a genocide I believe was British propaganda and Armenian propaganda for their own territorial and nationalist reasons, with no one to argue against it at the time. Since then dozens and dozens of LEGITIMATE scholars have declared THERE WAS NO ARMENIAN GENOCIDE.

It was great PR and justification for the West and USA to seize virtually all Ottoman Empire territory and the entire M.E. I don't believe there was an Armenian genocide. Rather, there were small and great atrocities including against civilians by all sides. Because the Ottomans lost and they are gone, the only finger pointing is that them. But the real culprits were the Western Powers and Russia who wanted to take over and have the Ottoman Empire's territory.

- - - -
SO... after reading all and doing my own research, I'm answering the poll "no."

How do you like them apples? :)
 
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joko104 said:
That report was written by the victorious British against a dead person of an non-existent government that was replaced by a government of his enemies overseen by the British.
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Lol, the victorious British? You mean a British scholar of Armenian origin whose academic career has revolved around studying exactly what happened during the genocide. Your arguments are starting to get absurd. Proclaiming there is biased based on the person's origin just makes you look like you REALLY have no interest in discussing the topic unless it's by some absurd standard you propose. When given evidence by scholars who study the topic, you claim bias because they're British, then when shown the actual policies in place you dismiss them because you want a call for genocide, as if that was a requirement for there to have been a genocide. It isn't joko.
 
Medusa said:
smart jews always like turkey and you know why if you are good at history
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Despite Jews being only a tiny fraction of the population today, antisemitic sentiments are quite common among modern-day Turks.[6] Public critique of Israeli policy in Turkey has a tradition of turning into expressions of general antisemitic sentiment.[7]

Since 2009, a fall in the Jewish population has been registered on this account. By September 2010 the Jewish population dropped to 17,000 people, mostly due to an emigration to Israel which has been explained by security concerns stemming from rising antisemitic sentiments[8] following incidents such as the 2006 Lebanon War, the 2008–2009 Gaza War and the May 2010 Gaza flotilla raid in which nine Turkish citizens were killed after assaulting Israeli Navy commandos boarding the flotilla ships to uphold the maritime blockade against Gaza.[9][10][11]

Antisemitism in Turkey - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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Sounds lovely. :roll:
 
Hatuey said:
Lol, the victorious British? You mean a British scholar of Armenian origin whose academic career has revolved around studying exactly what happened during the genocide. Your arguments are starting to get absurd. Proclaiming there is biased based on the person's origin just makes you look like you REALLY have no interest in discussing the topic unless it's by some absurd standard you propose. When given evidence by scholars who study the topic, you claim bias because they're British, then when shown the actual policies in place you dismiss them because you want a call for genocide, as if that was a requirement for there to have been a genocide. It isn't joko.
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70 scholars with NO interest in the findings or prejudice claim there was no Armenian genocide. Asserted policies do not make a genocide. There was no genocide. There were atrocities and on a large scale. But not just against Armenians.
 
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