View Poll Results: Did the Ottoman Empire Commit Genocide Against the Armenians?

Voters
37. You may not vote on this poll
  • Yes

    33 89.19%
  • No

    4 10.81%
Page 8 of 22 FirstFirst ... 67891018 ... LastLast
Results 71 to 80 of 220

Thread: Did the Ottoman Empire Commit Genocide Against the Armenians?

  1. #71
    Sage
    Medusa's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    Turkey
    Last Seen
    Today @ 02:17 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Other
    Posts
    37,127

    Re: Did the Ottoman Empire Commit Genocide Against the Armenians?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hatuey View Post
    Who the hell is we? This is why your revisionism fails. You weren't even alive in that period and the empire dissolved nearly 100 years ago. What the Ottoman Empire did do was conduct a policy that directly led to the death of 1.5 million people. That is in fact a genocide.
    you werent either but speak as if you know it better than any expert.of course 'we' .because I am defending my own nation ,not myself

    yes any source that proves millions of people were killed,real sources ?
    "Sovereignty is not given, it is taken." ATATÜRK

  2. #72
    Sage

    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    New York
    Last Seen
    02-01-17 @ 09:45 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Centrist
    Posts
    11,667

    Re: Did the Ottoman Empire Commit Genocide Against the Armenians?

    Unpopular as it might be to acknowledge it given the nature and scale of crimes involved, I believe Pete is making a nuanced and legitimate argument.

    Under the Convention on the prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide, genocide is defined as:

    …any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:

    a) Killing members of the group;
    b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
    c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
    d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
    e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.


    Many of those above activities including killing, forcibly transferring children, etc., were carried out. So one can fairly state that genocidal activity was carried out and on a large scale. The issue of genocide is a little murkier. Was “Turkification” aimed at destroying the Armenians, punishing them for their alleged support for Russia in World War I/pro-independence desires, expelling them, etc.?

    Unless those activities were carried out with intent to destroy the Armenian ethnic group in whole or part, the technical definition of genocide would not be met. Nevertheless, the genocidal activity, which is not in dispute, was reprehensible, to say the least. Those acts were crimes against humanity, which even if the technical definition of genocide was not met, were among the gravest crimes that could be inflicted. Moreover, those crimes led to massive loss of life.

    In sum, horrible crimes against humanity were committed.

  3. #73
    Sage
    Hatuey's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Last Seen
    Today @ 02:31 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Moderate
    Posts
    40,857

    Re: Did the Ottoman Empire Commit Genocide Against the Armenians?

    Quote Originally Posted by Medusa View Post
    you werent either but speak as if you know it better than any expert.
    I've sourced every single thing I've said. Also, the experts agree, it was a genocide. However, I'll bet pearls to pig **** that they're definitely not state funded Turkish experts.

    of course 'we' .because I am defending my own nation ,not myself
    Your nation is not the Ottoman Empire.

    yes any source that proves millions of people were killed,real sources ?
    Armenian Genocide of 1915: An Overview - New York Times

    As David Fromkin put it in his widely praised history of World War I and its aftermath, “A Peace to End All Peace”: “Rape and beating were commonplace. Those who were not killed at once were driven through mountains and deserts without food, drink or shelter. Hundreds of thousands of Armenians eventually succumbed or were killed .”
    Armenian Genocide : Center for Holocaust & Genocide Studies : University of Minnesota

    The Armenian Genocide of 1915 was the supremely violent historical moment that removed a people from its homeland and wiped away most of the tangible evidence of its three thousand years of material and spiritual culture. The calamity, which was unprecedented in scope and effect, may be viewed as part of the incessant Armenian struggle for survival and the culmination of the persecution and pogroms that began in the 1890s. Or, it may be placed in the context of the great upheavals that brought about the disintegration of the multiethnic and multireligious Ottoman Empire and the emergence of a Turkish nation-state based on a monoethnic and monoreligious society. The Ottoman government, dominated by the Committee of Union and Progress (CUP) or the Young Turk party, came to regard the Armenians as alien and a major obstacle to the fulfillment of its political, ideological and social goals. Its ferocious repudiation of plural society resulted in a single society, as the destruction of the Armenians was followed by the expulsion of the Greek population of Asia Minor and the suppression of the non-Turkish Muslim elements with the goal of bringing about turkification and assimilation. The method adopted to transform a plural Ottoman society into a homogeneous Turkish society was genocide.”
    Suny, R.G.: "They Can Live in the Desert but Nowhere Else": A History of the Armenian Genocide. (eBook and Hardcover)

    Starting in early 1915, the Ottoman Turks began deporting and killing hundreds of thousands of Armenians in the first major genocide of the twentieth century. By the end of the First World War, the number of Armenians in what would become Turkey had been reduced by ninety percent—more than a million people. A century later, the Armenian Genocide remains controversial but relatively unknown, overshadowed by later slaughters and the chasm separating Turkish and Armenian versions of events. In this definitive narrative history, Ronald Suny cuts through nationalist myths, propaganda, and denial to provide an unmatched account of when, how, and why the atrocities of 1915–16 were committed.
    Good grief, your denial of what has been proven over and over again by scholars all over the world, witnessed by journalists at the time, and discussed by figures of the period just makes you look absolutely silly.
    I refuse to accept the view that mankind is so tragically bound to the starless midnight of racism and war that the bright daybreak of peace and brotherhood can never become a reality. - MLK

  4. #74
    Sage
    Medusa's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    Turkey
    Last Seen
    Today @ 02:17 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Other
    Posts
    37,127

    Re: Did the Ottoman Empire Commit Genocide Against the Armenians?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hatuey View Post
    I've sourced every single thing I've said. Also, the experts agree, it was a genocide. However, I'll bet pearls to pig **** that they're definitely not state funded Turkish experts.



    Your nation is not the Ottoman Empire.



    Armenian Genocide of 1915: An Overview - New York Times



    Armenian Genocide : Center for Holocaust & Genocide Studies : University of Minnesota



    Suny, R.G.: "They Can Live in the Desert but Nowhere Else": A History of the Armenian Genocide. (eBook and Hardcover)



    Good grief, your denial of what has been proven over and over again by scholars all over the world, witnessed by journalists at the time, and discussed by figures of the period just makes you look absolutely silly.
    there isnt already any nation called ottoman.it is the name of the dynasty that ruled the empire.I had started a thread about it in the ME forum.you can look at what I posted there.I have no patience for ignorance and arrogance
    "Sovereignty is not given, it is taken." ATATÜRK

  5. #75
    Sage
    Hatuey's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Last Seen
    Today @ 02:31 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Moderate
    Posts
    40,857

    Re: Did the Ottoman Empire Commit Genocide Against the Armenians?

    Quote Originally Posted by Medusa View Post
    there isnt already any nation called ottoman.
    Yes, that's why I asked you what you're defending and pretending to be part of. A political entity that no longer exists?

    it is the name of the dynasty that ruled the empire.I had started a thread about it in the ME forum.you can look at what I posted there.I have no patience for ignorance and arrogance
    Lol, then don't enter a thread on the topic. Simple as that. Specially if you're going to throw your revisionist garbage around.
    I refuse to accept the view that mankind is so tragically bound to the starless midnight of racism and war that the bright daybreak of peace and brotherhood can never become a reality. - MLK

  6. #76
    On Vacation
    joko104's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Last Seen
    03-30-17 @ 03:14 AM
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    31,568
    Blog Entries
    2

    Re: Did the Ottoman Empire Commit Genocide Against the Armenians?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hatuey View Post
    There is nothing localized about 1.5 million people who were killed through marches and concentration camps.
    Except that is not the only way that 1.5 million number was derived. It was more 100 here and 1000 there. From what I read of it sometime ago, it was more local civil and military authorities, and sometimes just murderous riots. While I DO believe the Ottoman national leaders turned a blind eye to it and maybe even approved, that does not equate to ordering a genocide.

    The USA government even thru Kennedy and Johnson was well aware of persecution and murder of blacks particularly in the South, and did little to nothing when they could have for political reasons, but that does not make it an action they took. I have never read any evidence that the Ottoman federal government leadership ordered the rounding up and killing of all Armenians. This is unlike what happened in Germany.

    A concentration camp isn't a genocide. The USA had concentration camps during the Civil War - and a large percentage of the prisoners died - and during WWII. That does not constitute genocide. Nor does forced marches.

    The Cherokee "Trail of Tears" was in effect a death march, and government ordered (with this prior declared by the US Supreme Court illegal), but it falls short of genocide as the goal was not to kill all Cherokee. Rather, it was to move all Cherokee with indifference to the suffering and death this would cause by the forced march.

    Words like "crime against humanity," "slaughter of civilians," "killing and abuse of POWs," "governmental murderous criminal act" and more apply, but not genocide. Genocide was when the USA military charged into NA villages and killed everyone. THAT was genocide.

    So it gets MORE complicated, doesn't it? I would agree there were "genocides" within the Ottoman Empire that was localized - ie a deliberate killing of every Armenian they could find. But, again, there is nothing I've seen by which the Ottoman federal authority issued an order to round up and kill all Armenians - either directly or by action (such as in Germany.)

  7. #77
    On Vacation
    joko104's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Last Seen
    03-30-17 @ 03:14 AM
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    31,568
    Blog Entries
    2

    Re: Did the Ottoman Empire Commit Genocide Against the Armenians?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hatuey View Post
    Who the hell is we? This is why your revisionism fails. You weren't even alive in that period and the empire dissolved nearly 100 years ago. What the Ottoman Empire did do was conduct a policy that directly led to the death of 1.5 million people. That is in fact a genocide.
    Lots of government policies "lead to" the deaths of hundreds of thousands to millions of people. Generally all large scale wars do. The question is whether the 1.5 million deaths were ordered to be specifically killed?

    The Nazi holocaust was "a genocide." But by your definition Germany going to war was also a genocide because of all the deaths that occurred. Did the USA commit "genocide" because of all the Japanese killed in WWII? Did the North commit "genocide" against the South by fighting against their withdrawing from the Union?

  8. #78
    Sage
    Montecresto's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Last Seen
    03-13-16 @ 10:59 PM
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    24,561

    Re: Did the Ottoman Empire Commit Genocide Against the Armenians?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hatuey View Post
    I'm pretty sure I said that not every country has admitted to its role in a genocide. Germany is one of the few who has and should be commended for that.
    Yes, well....... We did rather hold them down with a foot on their chest and make them say it. But then they do deserve some credit I suppose.
    Killing one person is murder, killing 100,000 is foreign policy

  9. #79
    Sage
    Hatuey's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Last Seen
    Today @ 02:31 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Moderate
    Posts
    40,857

    Re: Did the Ottoman Empire Commit Genocide Against the Armenians?

    Quote Originally Posted by joko104 View Post
    Except that is not the only way that 1.5 million number was derived. It was more 100 here and 1000 there. From what I read of it sometime ago, it was more local civil and military authorities, and sometimes just murderous riots. While I DO believe the Ottoman national leaders turned a blind eye to it and maybe even approved, that does not equate to ordering a genocide.
    Yeah, we know, the mass graves containing 60K people, the massacres of Sivas, Mus, were counted "100" and "1000" at a time.

    A concentration camp isn't a genocide. The USA had concentration camps during the Civil War - and a large percentage of the prisoners died - and during WWII. That does not constitute genocide. Nor does forced marches.
    #1. Nobody said it was #2. It's the conditions under which they existed that count. Hundreds of thousands of murdered Armenians, hundreds of thousands more made to march under deadly conditions. Your revisionism is absurd.

    So it gets MORE complicated, doesn't it? I would agree there were "genocides" within the Ottoman Empire that was localized - ie a deliberate killing of every Armenian they could find. But, again, there is nothing I've seen by which the Ottoman federal authority issued an order to round up and kill all Armenians - either directly or by action (such as in Germany.)
    Good grief, the Ottoman Empire had pretty good knowledge of what their laws and actions were intended to do. It passed laws to restrict the ability of Armenians to defend themselves, then attacked and murdered them, all the while confiscating their property. There is nothing complex about that. It was a genocide meant to wipe out Armenians in its empire. There was nothing localized about it. The rest of your post was taken out because it's entirely irrelevant.
    I refuse to accept the view that mankind is so tragically bound to the starless midnight of racism and war that the bright daybreak of peace and brotherhood can never become a reality. - MLK

  10. #80
    Sage
    Hatuey's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Last Seen
    Today @ 02:31 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Moderate
    Posts
    40,857

    Re: Did the Ottoman Empire Commit Genocide Against the Armenians?

    Quote Originally Posted by joko104 View Post
    Lots of government policies "lead to" the deaths of hundreds of thousands to millions of people. Generally all large scale wars do. The question is whether the 1.5 million deaths were ordered to be specifically killed?
    Armenian Genocide of 1915: An Overview - New York Times

    Armenians mark the date April 24, 1915, when several hundred Armenian intellectuals were rounded up, arrested and later executed as the start of the Armenian genocide and it is generally said to have extended to 1917. However, there were also massacres of Armenians in 1894, 1895, 1896, 1909, and a reprise between 1920 and 1923.

    The University of Minnesota’s Center for Holocaust and Genocide Studies has compiled figures by province and district that show there were 2,133,190 Armenians in the empire in 1914 and only about 387,800 by 1922.
    That's a reduction of 85%, Joko. With 3/4ths of that being made up of executions and death marches alone. Believing it was done under anything other than a policy of extermination at this point makes you look even more revisionist.

    The Nazi holocaust was "a genocide." But by your definition Germany going to war was also a genocide because of all the deaths that occurred. Did the USA commit "genocide" because of all the Japanese killed in WWII? Did the North commit "genocide" against the South by fighting against their withdrawing from the Union?
    Ummm the the Nazi holocaust was a genocide. There was a policy of extermination. The US had no policy of exterminating the Japanese. That's patently absurd.
    I refuse to accept the view that mankind is so tragically bound to the starless midnight of racism and war that the bright daybreak of peace and brotherhood can never become a reality. - MLK

Page 8 of 22 FirstFirst ... 67891018 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •