View Poll Results: Did the Ottoman Empire Commit Genocide Against the Armenians?

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Thread: Did the Ottoman Empire Commit Genocide Against the Armenians?

  1. #31
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    Re: Did the Ottoman Empire Commit Genocide Against the Armenians?

    It is interesting to see which persecutions members of this forum focus on - and which ones they ignore. The fixation seems to single out USA allies to attack and ignore all that adversarial. There is a constant drum of hatred of the USA and our allies that is escalating.

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    Re: Did the Ottoman Empire Commit Genocide Against the Armenians?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hatuey View Post
    Okay, so there aren't refugees. But what does that have to do with whether it was a genocide?
    Eh? There were refugees.. why would you say there was not?

    One that fits every single genocide but not every war. If there is a policy to destroy a group of people culturally and not economic and cultural subjugation, it's a genocide.
    If there is a policy sure, but prove it. Was there a policy in Bosnia? No. Was there a policy under Saddam against the Kurds? No. Was there a policy to destroy the Armenians by the Ottomans? No.. deport them, yes, kill them off.. no.

    Yes, but what is the relevance of the numbers to whether it's a genocide or not? There is no association between genocide and the holocaust. There is however an acknowledgement that the holocaust was in fact a genocide. One of many that have occurred throughout time. I don't read about the Armenian Genocide and think "Oh man! Just like the nazis! That's not anachronistic!"
    Numbers matter. Killing a few thousand out of millions aint genocide. Killing 30+% of a total population well then we are getting to the genocide part. As for no association between genocide and the holocaust... say what? The holocaust is the standard of what genocide is.
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    Re: Did the Ottoman Empire Commit Genocide Against the Armenians?

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteEU View Post
    And again this definition is a serious problem, because then pretty much any war is genocide. For example the American invasion of Iraq.. genocide, because it targeted a political group.
    I misssed where a political group is covered?
    And Iraq was not Genocide.
    Show me the intent.
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    Re: Did the Ottoman Empire Commit Genocide Against the Armenians?

    Quote Originally Posted by celticwar17 View Post
    Well, in my opinion, what differentiates Genocide from war is that the sole and main reason for it is to kill a people of one or more ethnic groups because they are inferior or "don't belong" there.
    Again that argument can be made of any war.

    Other wars are fought for many other reasons like aggression, territory disputes, land, resources, terrorism, wealth, etc, etc. which may have that component in it, but not the main reason... or one the main reasons.
    Take territory disputes.. done because one side does not like the other side being in a certain place. Genocide?

    And you cant say in this case of the Armenians that the intent was to kill them all off, simply because of the amount of Armenians left after the fact in the once Ottoman Empire. That there could be over 100k Armenians in the capital of the Ottoman Empire in 1921 kinda shows that. Drive them into exile sure, but that aint genocide..if it was, then the west committed genocide against the German people after WW2 when they took Prussia from Germany and forced millions of Germans to leave their historical home land and many died on the process.

    That is why I say we have to be careful in using the "Genocide" claim, since it can be used against anyone. The formation of Israel? Genocide against Palestinians. Would you accept that? It aint no different than what happened to the Armenians.
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    Re: Did the Ottoman Empire Commit Genocide Against the Armenians?

    Quote Originally Posted by JANFU View Post
    I misssed where a political group is covered?
    And Iraq was not Genocide.
    Show me the intent.
    My bad, meant ethnic group, Iraqi or tribal groups or even religious minorities.

    As for intent, come on.. the whole country is based on tribes and Saddams tribe was the most powerful. The US went in there to destroy their power base .. that is intent.

    The argument can be made for this and any war. Take what Saudi is doing in Yemen.. targeting a single tribe or ethnic group. Genocide? The whole sunni vs shia... genocide? How about Northern Ireland?
    PeteEU

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    Re: Did the Ottoman Empire Commit Genocide Against the Armenians?

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteEU View Post
    Eh? There were refugees.. why would you say there was not?
    I'm not saying there weren't any. I'm asking you what the relevance of there being refugees has to whether it was a genocide. There were millions of refugees from Sudan and Rwanda. There is very little doubt there was a genocide in either of those places.

    If there is a policy sure, but prove it.
    Well, it started with laws regarding deportation:

    On 29 May 1915, the CUP Central Committee passed the Temporary Law of Deportation ("Tehcir Law"), giving the Ottoman government and military authorization to deport anyone it "sensed" as a threat to national security.[22]:186–8
    Evidence that the Pashas had a role in coordinating the daily massacres:

    Historian Hans-Lukas Kieser states that, from the statements of Talaat Pasha[40] it is clear that the officials were aware that the deportation order was genocidal.[41] Another historian Taner Akçam states that the telegrams show that the overall coordination of the genocide was taken over by Talaat Pasha.[42]
    Confiscation of their property:

    Armenian Genocide - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    The Tehcir Law brought some measures regarding the property of the deportees, but during September a new law was proposed. By means of the "Abandoned Properties" Law (Law Concerning Property, Dept's and Assets Left Behind Deported Persons, also referred as the "Temporary Law on Expropriation and Confiscation"), the Ottoman government took possession of all "abandoned" Armenian goods and properties. Ottoman parliamentary representative Ahmed Riza protested this legislation:
    Was there a policy in Bosnia? No. Was there a policy under Saddam against the Kurds? No. Was there a policy to destroy the Armenians by the Ottomans? No.. deport them, yes, kill them off.. no.
    You're muddying the water and it's starting to become clear that you don't actually believe there was a genocide. It was just a bunch of people sent to march, sent to concentration camps, with their property confiscated and with the probability of death being sky high, all of which was supported by the Ottoman Empire through various laws. Nope, that's not a genocide according to you.

    Numbers matter. Killing a few thousand out of millions aint genocide. Killing 30+% of a total population well then we are getting to the genocide part. As for no association between genocide and the holocaust... say what? The holocaust is the standard of what genocide is.
    A few thousand weren't killed though. You have 1.5 million people dead according to the overwhelming majority of sources.
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    Re: Did the Ottoman Empire Commit Genocide Against the Armenians?

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteEU View Post
    My bad, meant ethnic group, Iraqi or tribal groups or even religious minorities.

    As for intent, come on.. the whole country is based on tribes and Saddams tribe was the most powerful. The US went in there to destroy their power base .. that is intent.

    The argument can be made for this and any war. Take what Saudi is doing in Yemen.. targeting a single tribe or ethnic group. Genocide? The whole sunni vs shia... genocide? How about Northern Ireland?
    Nope - The Sunni are 1 a minority - 2 guilty of Genocide against the Kurds to start with - 3 - we were lied to.
    But no genocide.
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  8. #38
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    Re: Did the Ottoman Empire Commit Genocide Against the Armenians?

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDemSocialist View Post
    My question to you is: Did the Ottoman Empire Commit Genocide Against the Armenians?
    Technically no, though in practical terms, yes.

    Genoicide is defined as an attempt to kill an entire group of people. As such, genocides have been rare (holocaust, Rwanda). The Turks attempted to kill any armenians living in certain areas which were deemed to be disloyal or potentially disloyal- and the Turks had a blanket definition of disloyalty that included every Armenian in those areas.

    But, Armenians living in the capital and other parts of western Turkey were not killed, or even detained. Thus, what the Turks did was technially not an attempt to kill all Armenians- just the real or perceived disloyal ones (which was a very large number).

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    Re: Did the Ottoman Empire Commit Genocide Against the Armenians?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hatuey View Post
    I'm not saying there weren't any. I'm asking you what the relevance of there being refugees has to whether it was a genocide. There were millions of refugees from Sudan and Rwanda. There is very little doubt there was a genocide in either of those places.



    Well, it started with laws regarding deportation:



    Evidence that the Pashas had a role in coordinating the daily massacres:



    Confiscation of their property:

    Armenian Genocide - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia





    You're muddying the water and it's starting to become clear that you don't actually believe there was a genocide. It was just a bunch of people sent to march, sent to concentration camps, with their property confiscated and with the probability of death being sky high, all of which was supported by the Ottoman Empire through various laws. Nope, that's not a genocide according to you.



    A few thousand weren't killed though. You have 1.5 million people dead according to the overwhelming majority of sources.
    what kind of sources are they ?
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    Re: Did the Ottoman Empire Commit Genocide Against the Armenians?

    Quote Originally Posted by joko104 View Post
    It is interesting to see which persecutions members of this forum focus on - and which ones they ignore. The fixation seems to single out USA allies to attack and ignore all that adversarial. There is a constant drum of hatred of the USA and our allies that is escalating.
    Thank you for the like, Medusa. I suppose this poll is to call upon you to defend your country. That get's old, doesn't it?

    This poll is not about anything currently topical in the USA or significantly anywhere in the world.

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