View Poll Results: Did the Ottoman Empire Commit Genocide Against the Armenians?

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Thread: Did the Ottoman Empire Commit Genocide Against the Armenians?

  1. #21
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    Re: Did the Ottoman Empire Commit Genocide Against the Armenians?

    Quote Originally Posted by Medusa View Post
    no it is never illegal here .but in switzerland if you deny it they will put you into jail.very democratic.if you dont believe in me Google it
    I'm not sure of your intentions but it clearly is illegal to mention prior actions against the Armenians as "Genocide." Perhaps I should be more clear here, using the term is the part that gets you into the biggest trouble. If you punished an article right now in Turkey along these lines, you would be facing a court.
    "Every time something really bad happens, people cry out for safety, and the government answers by taking rights away from good people." - Penn Jillette.

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    Re: Did the Ottoman Empire Commit Genocide Against the Armenians?

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDemSocialist View Post
    Asking this question because recently one of my favorite bands System of a Down is starting a tour, and they are doing it in commemoration of 100th anniversary of "The Great Crime" (the Armenian Genocide) System of a Down to Commemorate Armenian Genocide | Al Jazeera America . This sparked my interest to see what DP's opinion on the manner is.

    Many countries have not recognized the Armenian Genocide. Its a topic of heated debate. The US government has not recognized it, but 44 states have.

    My question to you is: Did the Ottoman Empire Commit Genocide Against the Armenians?
    Probably ...
    It seems to be the nature of man to destroy what he cannot understand .
    A good subject, maybe "too good', for a future movie .. "genocide" .. another is "Intolerance 2" .
    ISIS lives on ignorance and fear and they have destroyed a library in Iraq ...maybe there was the answer ?
    No vote , again , I simply do not know , nor do I trust many sources .
    Last edited by earthworm; 04-07-15 at 08:53 AM. Reason: to add

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    Re: Did the Ottoman Empire Commit Genocide Against the Armenians?

    Quote Originally Posted by Glen Contrarian View Post
    It happened, all right...but as so often the case (like Japan with the Rape of Nanking, what Britain did to India, and our own genocide of Native Americans), the ones who did it don't want to own up to it.
    Sad , but all too true .. When man begins to be honest and live up to his humanity .. we will all be better off .. however sad...

  4. #24
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    Re: Did the Ottoman Empire Commit Genocide Against the Armenians?

    Quote Originally Posted by OrphanSlug View Post
    Well, best of luck getting some sort of standard adhered to with this. And given the conversation to date it still seems to me that intention means more than results, which speaks well to the historical implication level of getting an event recorded a certain way. Just the way I see it.
    There is an old saying.. the victor writes the history... and in the cases of actual genocide this is true. It is also true in making situations like the Ottoman dealing with the Armenian situation sound much worse than it actually was. Remember the Katyn massacre? For decades it was blamed on the Nazis and yet it was the allies (Soviets) that did it. Or the several American war crimes during WW2 that we never hear about nor talk about..or the British or French crimes. All we hear about is the crimes of the Germans and their allies.

    The situation here is no different. I have no doubt that during WW1 the situation in the area was made far worse in the western media that it actually was. But that of course does not excuse the actions of the Ottomans of the time, or the end result at all.. but there is one hell of a difference in saying that 10000 Armenians were killed or 1 million... both are horrible, but it is the 1 million that sticks and it is the 1 million that makes it genocide, where as 10000 is just "it was war, **** happens".

    And in no way does it reflect the Turkish state today, as in no way does the American Indian genocide reflect the American administration of today (or the last 60 years).
    PeteEU

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    Re: Did the Ottoman Empire Commit Genocide Against the Armenians?

    The term "genocide" is recent. 1940s, roughly.
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    Re: Did the Ottoman Empire Commit Genocide Against the Armenians?

    Quote Originally Posted by Medusa View Post
    if you deny it in switzerland they will arrest you .Google it too.

    this thread belongs to the ME forum....
    Don't care about Switzerland.

    The subject is the Ottoman Empire and their very real genocide against the Armenians... We can add Assyrians and Ottoman Greeks to the atrocities.

    Did the Ottoman Empire Commit Genocide Against the Armenians?-800px-armenian_genocide_map-svg-jpg
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  7. #27
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    Re: Did the Ottoman Empire Commit Genocide Against the Armenians?

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteEU View Post
    Actually it is not that subjective as you might think. There is plenty of legal basis for the definition I pointed out and it has been used before. And as I pointed out, it is a weak definition because of the significant aspect.



    LOL dictionaries? Seriously, only legal decisions from various jurisdictions should be used, especially those from international courts.. not dictionaries.. seriously, might as well use a cornflakes box definition then.



    Then there is a hell of a lot of genocide going on... basically any war.



    Even worse definition.. does not even have to be a war.. gang crime in any major city could meet this definition.



    By any these definitions, the US invasion of Panama could be called genocide.
    The international legal definition of genocide - Prevent Genocide International
    "Article II: In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:

    (a) Killing members of the group;
    (b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
    (c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
    (d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
    (e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.
    The Genocide Convention in International Law — United States Holocaust Memorial Museum
    Background
    In 1948, the United Nations General Assembly voted unanimously to create the UN Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide (external link). Recognizing that “at all periods of history genocide has inflicted great losses on humanity” and that international cooperation was needed “to liberate mankind from this odious scourge,” the Convention criminalized certain acts committed with the intent to destroy ethnic, national, racial, or religious groups.
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  8. #28
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    Re: Did the Ottoman Empire Commit Genocide Against the Armenians?

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteEU View Post
    No. First off the refugees were not in the US, but in the area. LOL 800k refugees in the US.. yea right... especially during those racist times. They form most of the present Armenian population today. Secondly it was not only scholars, but also official records for the most part. Official census records and religious records.
    Okay, so there aren't refugees. But what does that have to do with whether it was a genocide?

    That is a very broad definition of genocide and a very dangerous one. Pretty much any war of conquest between nations falls under this description.
    One that fits every single genocide but not every war. If there is a policy to destroy a group of people culturally and not economic and cultural subjugation, it's a genocide.

    And that is what is disputed... the numbers. Was there a forced deportation of disloyal Armenians by the Ottomans during the last years of Empire.. yes. Did many die, most likely, but the accusations include more people than officially registered or estimated, and THAT means the claim is a bit iffy to say the least.

    But lets be clear, there was an organised attempt of ethnic cleansing that cost the lives of many thousands of people and no one is denying this... not even the Turks themselves. The issue is labelling it as a genocide.. a term associated with the Jewish holocaust, and that is the point. People, especially politicians, are trying to link acts of mass murder by political opponents to the acts of the Nazi´s.. and thereby tainting them forever as "modern Nazi's". It is one of the reasons that the US officially denies that the treatment of the native American Indians was genocide.
    Yes, but what is the relevance of the numbers to whether it's a genocide or not? There is no association between genocide and the holocaust. There is however an acknowledgement that the holocaust was in fact a genocide. One of many that have occurred throughout time. I don't read about the Armenian Genocide and think "Oh man! Just like the nazis! That's not anachronistic!"
    I refuse to accept the view that mankind is so tragically bound to the starless midnight of racism and war that the bright daybreak of peace and brotherhood can never become a reality. - MLK

  9. #29
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    Re: Did the Ottoman Empire Commit Genocide Against the Armenians?

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteEU View Post

    Then there is a hell of a lot of genocide going on... basically any war.
    Well, in my opinion, what differentiates Genocide from war is that the sole and main reason for it is to kill a people of one or more ethnic groups because they are inferior or "don't belong" there.

    Other wars are fought for many other reasons like aggression, territory disputes, land, resources, terrorism, wealth, etc, etc. which may have that component in it, but not the main reason... or one the main reasons.

  10. #30
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    Re: Did the Ottoman Empire Commit Genocide Against the Armenians?

    And again this definition is a serious problem, because then pretty much any war is genocide. For example the American invasion of Iraq.. genocide, because it targeted a political group.
    PeteEU

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