View Poll Results: Did the Ottoman Empire Commit Genocide Against the Armenians?

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Thread: Did the Ottoman Empire Commit Genocide Against the Armenians?

  1. #171
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    Re: Did the Ottoman Empire Commit Genocide Against the Armenians?

    I wonder how many people who answered this poll realize that there were around 200,000 Armenian Christians at war with the Ottoman Muslims and tens of thousands of those didn't wear uniforms as insurgent/terrorists?

    Or how many realize the greatest causes of death was disease and starvation across the entire region on a massive scale - resulting from relentless empire building wars by the Western powers in that region?

    Or that the greatest number of civilian deaths, by a factor of ten, were Ottoman Muslims, not Christians such as the Armenian Christians?

    So buying the pro-empire building wars Muslims-are-evil PR, American members effectively vote that ONLY Muslims committed atrocities against Christians attacking them in their own country - but certainly no Christians such as the Armenians did - though the "ethnic cleansing" of Muslims still continued in the region after the break up the USSR.

    The West just MUST continue to rule and invade Muslims because if we don't they will commit more atrocities. How many wars against Muslims have been justified for 150+ years by the Christian West on that claim? While far more Muslim civilians die in these wars than by atrocities, but that's just how war is so those don't civilian deaths don't count. Everyone knows that Christians never committed atrocities against civilians because Christians are good and Muslims are evil. And inferior.
    Last edited by joko104; 04-08-15 at 09:11 AM.

  2. #172
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    Re: Did the Ottoman Empire Commit Genocide Against the Armenians?

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDemSocialist View Post
    Asking this question because recently one of my favorite bands System of a Down is starting a tour, and they are doing it in commemoration of 100th anniversary of "The Great Crime" (the Armenian Genocide) System of a Down to Commemorate Armenian Genocide | Al Jazeera America . This sparked my interest to see what DP's opinion on the manner is.

    Many countries have not recognized the Armenian Genocide. Its a topic of heated debate. The US government has not recognized it, but 44 states have.

    My question to you is: Did the Ottoman Empire Commit Genocide Against the Armenians?
    Ethnic cleansing; Yes, even Ataturk admitted that massacres had taken place and condemed them,

    Genocide (insofar as a premeditated attempt to elimiate an entire group); probably not.

    Why it should have any bearing on contempory international relations; **** knows

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    Re: Did the Ottoman Empire Commit Genocide Against the Armenians?

    Quote Originally Posted by US Conservative View Post
    Joko, Im disappointed in the hoops you are jumping though. The Armenians were violently subjugated by the Turks-not just as a conquered nation, but as Christians as well. They did the same thing to the Greeks and nobody pretends it wasn't a genocide.
    right wingers are never reliable while they are comdemning other countries for war crimes
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  4. #174
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    Re: Did the Ottoman Empire Commit Genocide Against the Armenians?

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteEU View Post
    Okay a bit of historical word games here then and hypothetical. The main motivator of Nazi Germany was more land... does that mean the slaughter of Jews was not genocide? The extermination of Jews started after the war had begun. The reasons for the war had absolutely nothing to do with Jews. Persecution of Jews was mainstream across the planet, with the Germans just taking it to another level before the war. The treatment of Jews pre 1940 was not much different than the treatment of blacks in the US at the same time.

    So was the holocaust genocide or not?

    Again we are down to definitions and facts. To me the term genocide is one of the most powerful words in the English language. It does and should mean something extra-ordinary and it should not be abused... and it is the latter that seems to be happening more and more. Yes the holocaust was a genocide, but no the Bosnian massacre or the Saddam Hussien targeting of some Kurds was not. As for the Armenian case, due to the lack of accurate population numbers and the "victors write the history" aspect, then it is hard to call it a genocide... ethnic cleansing sure, but not genocide.
    I think the war and the genocide was two different things in WW2. The war and territorial disputes was not genocide... the internal regulation and gathering of jews, then killing/experimenting on them was....

  5. #175
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    Re: Did the Ottoman Empire Commit Genocide Against the Armenians?

    Quote Originally Posted by Medusa View Post
    right wingers are never reliable while they are comdemning other countries for war crimes
    I agree, other than I don't think it is just rightwingers. War drums stir up nationalism and at least in the USA liberals call for wars as often and conservatives, though sometimes not the same wars.

    What is a constant everywhere is that generally the true reasons for war a land, resources, power - but the reason given to the public is that the other side is evil to define it as good versus evil - rather than our country against their country for the real reasons.

    Civil wars and atrocities regularly rage across African, but there is nothing in those matters that other countries want, so no one intervenes to stop the atrocities. There's a lot (a lot of oil and natural resources and now also wealth) in the Middle East, so the foreign interventions remain there.

    For example, today the news is a white American officer shooting a black man in the back multiple times and then planting evidence on him to try to justify it. We see that as just a bad cop.

    But if this has been a video of a Muslim cop shooting a fleeing Christian in a Muslim country that we have interest in the oil there? OMG! We MUST ATTACK to stop the atrocities and it will be all over our media - us good people MUST attack those evil people.

    For 150 years that is the story of the West's invasions and attacks in the Middle East and Muslim countries. Are some inventions justified? I say yes. But most were just to take the resources and wealth of the Middle East.

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    Re: Did the Ottoman Empire Commit Genocide Against the Armenians?

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteEU View Post
    But the Aremians were second class citizens. They were oppressed just like the Shia are. And they were targeted like the Shia are in Yemen.



    Yes, definitions that are highly politically motivated and can basically be used against anyone.



    No I dont. I agree with some of the definitions but I am very warry to use those legal definitions because they can so easily be painted on any country or society. For example, the police department in Ferguson. They targeted black people... that is genocide according to the definition.
    Ferguson, no, you are musing the term to fit a variety of issues.
    Ferguson would not come close to meeting the standard for Genocide.
    Much in he same way you classify all war as genocidal. They are all not genocidal.
    Now was Iraq and act of Genocide.
    The slaughter of Armenians was Genocide.
    It was a planned mass murder of an ethnic group. It meets the legal definition we now use for Genocide.
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  7. #177
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    Re: Did the Ottoman Empire Commit Genocide Against the Armenians?

    Quote Originally Posted by JANFU View Post
    The slaughter of Armenians was Genocide.
    It was a planned mass murder of an ethnic group. It meets the legal definition we now use for Genocide.
    Except 'we' only use that legal definition when it suits us, and given that there is no court case pending, there's no plenary in which to make the argument in any case. It may meet your, or my definition of genocide, but so what? Still no one has answered my earlier questions: What are we meant to do with this debate? If we say "yes, that was genocide", what should be the consequence for Turkey, Armenia or in the international sphere? If we say that the Ottomans committed genocide, shouldn't we also open up the other issues already mentioned for reassessment? If not, why not?
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  8. #178
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    Re: Did the Ottoman Empire Commit Genocide Against the Armenians?

    Quote Originally Posted by celticwar17 View Post
    I think the war and the genocide was two different things in WW2. The war and territorial disputes was not genocide... the internal regulation and gathering of jews, then killing/experimenting on them was....
    So the internal regulation and gathering of the Japanese was genocide? Now there was no active killing/experimenting.. but they were hardly held in pleasant conditions and many died.

    If war and genocide are two different things then what about a civil war, which technically the end of Ottoman Empire could be categorized as.
    PeteEU

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    Re: Did the Ottoman Empire Commit Genocide Against the Armenians?

    Quote Originally Posted by Andalublue View Post
    Except 'we' only use that legal definition when it suits us, and given that there is no court case pending, there's no plenary in which to make the argument in any case. It may meet your, or my definition of genocide, but so what? Still no one has answered my earlier questions: What are we meant to do with this debate? If we say "yes, that was genocide", what should be the consequence for Turkey, Armenia or in the international sphere? If we say that the Ottomans committed genocide, shouldn't we also open up the other issues already mentioned for reassessment? If not, why not?
    No, many misuse it. I have not.
    As to other genocides, I missed your posts. Which were you referring to? Japan, Uganda, Darfur to name a few?
    If my post offends you, I deeply Apple-O-Jize.

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    Re: Did the Ottoman Empire Commit Genocide Against the Armenians?

    Quote Originally Posted by JANFU View Post
    Ferguson, no, you are musing the term to fit a variety of issues.
    Ferguson would not come close to meeting the standard for Genocide.
    Why the hell not. The specific targeting of an ethnic group for punishment and death...

    Much in he same way you classify all war as genocidal. They are all not genocidal.
    I said no such thing. I said that certain classification of the word genocide could mean that many wars were genocidal. Big difference. Do I think wars are genocide.. no.

    Now was Iraq and act of Genocide.
    The slaughter of Armenians was Genocide.
    It was a planned mass murder of an ethnic group. It meets the legal definition we now use for Genocide.
    So you have to plan it.. what about carry it out? In the case of the Armenian "genocide", we know there was some sort of plan, but was it ever carried out fully or partially, because the we also know that the so called death numbers are at best suspect considering the population numbers before and after the supposed genocide. I am in no way dismissing that the Ottomans killed a bunch of its citizens during an internal uprising, but calling it genocide might be too strong especially when compared to other cases of so called genocide.

    And who are "we".. the definition of Genocide varies depending on the country and political leaning of the people who are accusing someone and THAT is the problem.
    PeteEU

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