View Poll Results: Did the Ottoman Empire Commit Genocide Against the Armenians?

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Thread: Did the Ottoman Empire Commit Genocide Against the Armenians?

  1. #161
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    Re: Did the Ottoman Empire Commit Genocide Against the Armenians?

    Quote Originally Posted by PoS View Post
    What do you propose to do about it? Many countries and people have committed genocide before and since- The Russian communists in Ukraine during the famine in Holdomor, The Isrealis in Lebanon, Henry Kissinger's meddling in Cambodia led to the Khmer Rouge taking power and the killing fields, etc. If you want to condemn the Turks for what they did then you ought to condemn them all.
    Leave it to the most open supporter of Islamic terrorism and the murder of Western innocents in Debate Politics' history to claim that Israel's actions against Lebanese terrorists in self-defense was fitting the term "genocide" and then even go further and compare it to the Armenian genocide or the Khmer Rouge. And before you start accusing Israel for the massacres of Sabra and Shatila, these were not actions carried by Israelis but by Lebanese, but I guess that's not what they teach at howtobeagoodshiiteterrorsupporter.org. By the way these massacres carried by the Lebanese against other Lebanese are massacres, not a bloody genocide. Just a note there.
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    Re: Did the Ottoman Empire Commit Genocide Against the Armenians?

    Quote Originally Posted by Medusa View Post
    smart jews always like turkey and you know why if you are good at history
    You didn't answer the question Medusa, I'm sincerely asking what is the Turkish education ministry's approach to the subject.
    I could research it myself but I would like to hear it directly from a Turkish citizen who grew up and studied in the Turkish education system.
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    Re: Did the Ottoman Empire Commit Genocide Against the Armenians?

    Quote Originally Posted by Apocalypse View Post
    Leave it to the most open supporter of Islamic terrorism and the murder of Western innocents in Debate Politics' history to claim that Israel's actions against Lebanese terrorists in self-defense was fitting the term "genocide" and then even go further and compare it to the Armenian genocide or the Khmer Rouge. And before you start accusing Israel for the massacres of Sabra and Shatila, these were not actions carried by Israelis but by Lebanese, but I guess that's not what they teach at howtobeagoodshiiteterrorsupporter.org. By the way these massacres carried by the Lebanese against other Lebanese are massacres, not a bloody genocide. Just a note there.
    Ah so the neo Nazi PEGIDA supporter supposedly condemns genocides but excuses Isreali actions, What else is new?

    Sabra and Shatila massacre - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    The MacBride commission's report, Israel in Lebanon, concluded that the Israeli authorities or forces were responsible in the massacres and other killings that have been reported to have been carried out by Lebanese militiamen in Sabra and Shatila in the Beirut area between 16 and 18 September.
    On 16 December 1982, the United Nations General Assembly condemned the massacre and declared it to be an act of genocide.

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    Re: Did the Ottoman Empire Commit Genocide Against the Armenians?

    Quote Originally Posted by PoS View Post
    What do you propose to do about it? Many countries and people have committed genocide before and since- The Russian communists in Ukraine during the famine in Holdomor, The Isrealis in Lebanon, Henry Kissinger's meddling in Cambodia led to the Khmer Rouge taking power and the killing fields, etc. If you want to condemn the Turks for what they did then you ought to condemn them all.
    I propose to administer all consequences appropriate to the crime as indicated.

    WTF do you say to that? (after you make excuses?)

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    Re: Did the Ottoman Empire Commit Genocide Against the Armenians?

    Quote Originally Posted by PoS View Post
    Ah so the neo Nazi PEGIDA supporter supposedly condemns genocides but excuses Isreali actions, What else is new?

    Sabra and Shatila massacre - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    Yes only that I'm not a neo-Nazi and never supported Nazism (hilarious that I need to point that out) while you are a terror supporter and a very known one, supporting the Hamas and Hezbollah terrorists and literally crying your heart out over the targeted killings of their high-ranking members who were responsible for the murder of countless of innocents a while back. I guess that whenever an Islamic terrorist out there who has murdered Western innocents gets what he deserves and dies something inside you dies with him eh?

    Regarding Sabra and Shatila it's history revisionism to suggest that the perpetrators of the massacre were Israelis as they were Lebanese by a matter of fact. You have no issue with Lebanese murdering Lebanese as you couldn't care less for Lebanese's lives and all you care about is hating Israel which is why you decide to refer to the massacres as Israeli-perpetrated instead of Lebanese-perpetrated which they were, and it is also why you bring yourself down to the level of terror support and supporting those who would murder little children with no second thought only due to the fact they were born to Jewish parents (e.g. your support for Hezbollah) and yes, it is also why you always refuse to spell Israel's name and choose to say "Isreal" instead, because you share the insane hatred certain nations hold towards Israel for its very existence. So I find it hilariously hypocritical that you still go around here talking about morality as if you of all people have a say on moral subjects.

    The MacBride commission did not do a proper job as the Israeli Kahan commission did. Regardless it should be noted that the Wiki article notes the following:

    Unlike the Israeli commission, the McBride commission did not work with the idea of separate degrees of responsibility, viz., direct and indirect.
    So to conclude the Kahan commission was right to state that Israel holds indirect responsibility for the massacres, not a direct one. The MacBride commission you have quoted had declared Israel was responsible but was also referring to an indirect responsibility, not to a direct responsibility, as it wasn't Israeli soldiers that were killing Palestinians in the Sabra and Shatila camps but Lebanese militia men, and Israel was responsible for not intervening when it could. That the massacres were carried out by a Lebanese group of people is an historical, indisputable fact. What you're doing is called history revisionism, in your case so to serve a medieval hatred towards anything Israeli. And no the massacres are not a genocide regardless of what the oh so respected UN has to say, but are pure and simple, horrifying massacres. There were massacres committed against the people of that group of Lebanese who had committed the Sabra and Shatila massacre and the action of these Lebanese was a return action, but these massacres were not genocide either. It's clearly an obvious sign of immorality to be comparing these massacres, which are terrible on their own but are a small part of the atrocities that human history is tainted with, to the actual genocides; the reference to the biggest atrocities in human history, such as the Armenian genocide or the Khmar Rouge killings.
    Last edited by Apocalypse; 04-08-15 at 05:47 AM.
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    Re: Did the Ottoman Empire Commit Genocide Against the Armenians?

    Quote Originally Posted by Andalublue View Post
    Except that there is plenty of documentary evidence that proves a concerted campaign against Armenians, all Armenians within the empire. It's wrong to say that Armenians in Istanbul and the west were left unmolested, they were subject to 'resettlement' too. There is also plenty of attested evidence by reliable sources that proves that 'resettlement' was to have fatal consequences. Read that Taner Akcam book that's already been cited. I was as sceptical as you, probably more so, before I read it. It's useful because it's written by a Turkish academic that had a lot of access to documentation that no Armenian or foreign academic would be able to access.
    But again you can say that of any empire and their treatment of their subjects, especially the minorities.

    Like it or not, the Armenian's along with the Greeks chose to rise up against the Ottomans and suffered the consequences. You can call it ethnic cleansing or mass murder but genocide.. sorry but the evidence does not support a mass extermination of a minority per say. When the Indians rose up against the British empire, was that genocide? How about the Zulus? How about in Australia?

    Now if we go by intent.. again a dangerous precedence, because how can we define intent of a defeated enemy, let alone that of the victors.. who write the history. Just look at how the American expansion west was treated for over a century (and still is frankly) by the history books and American public.
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    Re: Did the Ottoman Empire Commit Genocide Against the Armenians?

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteEU View Post
    sorry but the evidence does not support a mass extermination of a minority per say.
    Yes, it does.

    Now if we go by intent.. again a dangerous precedence, because how can we define intent of a defeated enemy, let alone that of the victors.. who write the history. Just look at how the American expansion west was treated for over a century (and still is frankly) by the history books and American public.
    Let's not stray into tu quoque arguments. It's irrelevant how the American society treats its own history of shameful acts. There's plenty of evidence that damns Andrew Jackson of the crimes of ethnic cleansing and, arguably, genocide, so there's no double-standards at play here. The evidence exists of specific plans and orders for the extermination of Armenians, the recruitment of criminals to the Special Organisation to act as extermination squads and the specific intent of Talaat Pasha and the CUP leadership to liquidate Armenians as an ethnic minority within the empire.
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    Re: Did the Ottoman Empire Commit Genocide Against the Armenians?

    Quote Originally Posted by Andalublue View Post
    Yes, it does.
    It is at best, highly contradictory evidence.

    The evidence exists of specific plans and orders for the extermination of Armenians, the recruitment of criminals to the Special Organisation to act as extermination squads and the specific intent of Talaat Pasha and the CUP leadership to liquidate Armenians as an ethnic minority within the empire.
    Yes I know but having plans and giving orders does not mean that a genocide is committed. And if it was the intent of CUP to kill all Armenians, then frankly they did a piss poor job of it depending on the what population numbers we believe in.

    I dont disagree with the nationalistic aspects of an Ottoman Empire in decline and it trying to keep the Empire together at any cost. They were brutal and killed people all across the empire from Egypt, Arabia to Iraq to Greece and so on. Were they all genocides too?

    But I think we can agree on the fact that the Ottoman Empire was brutal in its last days against all people who tried to overthrow the status quo... much like other empires in decline.
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    Re: Did the Ottoman Empire Commit Genocide Against the Armenians?

    Quote Originally Posted by US Conservative View Post
    In your eyes, does that truly excuse anything?
    Just as much of what the US conducted during WW2 wasn't classified as war crimes until 1975. So I guess war crimes weren't committed then.
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    Re: Did the Ottoman Empire Commit Genocide Against the Armenians?

    The history of the wars that region from the Crimean Wars, the Balkins and the entire M.E. of the 19th century thru WWI as the British, French and Russian Empire along with lesser empires, countries and ethnic groups competing with each other over the territory of the declining Ottoman Empire is complex and reflects the realities of the new weapons of modern war - specifically artillery firing high explosives and the machine gun. The response to these weapons was to increase the numbers of troops in wars all over the region.

    Essentially, it was Christians against Muslims and Western Christians against Eastern Christians. Killing Muslims and specifically Turks became the game. In the end, the Christian West - specifically the UK, France and later involving the USA won - meaning taking Ottoman-Turk lands for themselves. Russia was less successful but did capture some Ottoman territory. These wars also lead to widespread famine and disease.

    The numbers of dead reaches into the 10s of millions, about a 6-1 ratio of civilian deaths to military deaths, and disease and famine killed far more than military action, even among troops. In a sense, the wars became everyone killing Ottoman Turks including ethnic Turks where were defined by the West as both heathen and racially inferior, who came to increasingly also engaged in atrocities.

    By the time WWI actually occurred warring had been going on over half a century. While people tend to see WWI in European battle terms, it was primarily over who would take over the lands of the Ottoman Empire. The UK seriously under-estimated the fighting ability of Germany nor recognized that Ottoman Muslims would more oppose Christian conquest of their territory even more than they hated Turks controlling their territory, so Ottoman resistance also was greater. Adding the collapse of Russia due to the Russian Revolution, it became necessary for the British Empire and French Empire cutting the USA into the deal to divide up the Ottoman Empire for themselves.

    In a sense, these wars have never ended and much of the fighting in the ME directly traces back thru that history.

    To point at the Turks (ie Muslims) and fixate solely on atrocities against Armenians, who were at war on a mass military and civil scale, is not just simplistic, but is the age-old Christian West claiming Muslims are so evil that the Western Christian countries just had to attack and take control of all Muslim countries. To this day, this claim that these Muslims here and those Muslims there are so murderously evil that the UK, USA and France much militarily dictate and control their countries - and of course their oil.

    Muslim Iraq is so evil we must invade. Libyan Muslim government so evil we must attack. Syrian Government so evil we must attack. Ottoman Empire Muslims so evil we must attack. Algerian Muslims so evil we must attack. Etc. For now over 150 years, the morally superior Christian Western nations must attack the evil Muslim countries. However, it is no long claimed this is because they are racially inferior and heathens.

    A 1000% more Ottoman civilians were killed that Armenians, but then those Ottomans were racially inferior evil Muslims so their deaths don't count. Only the civilian deaths of their Armenian military adversary count.

    Accuse the Muslims of making it necessary to attack them and take over their land and people - more of the same, still doing it to this day. If we kill their civilians it is regrettable collateral damage. If they kill civilians it is atrocities and genocide. All in their countries.

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