View Poll Results: Did the Ottoman Empire Commit Genocide Against the Armenians?

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Thread: Did the Ottoman Empire Commit Genocide Against the Armenians?

  1. #151
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    Re: Did the Ottoman Empire Commit Genocide Against the Armenians?

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteEU View Post
    Okay a bit of historical word games here then and hypothetical. The main motivator of Nazi Germany was more land... does that mean the slaughter of Jews was not genocide? The extermination of Jews started after the war had begun. The reasons for the war had absolutely nothing to do with Jews. Persecution of Jews was mainstream across the planet, with the Germans just taking it to another level before the war. The treatment of Jews pre 1940 was not much different than the treatment of blacks in the US at the same time.

    So was the holocaust genocide or not?

    Again we are down to definitions and facts. To me the term genocide is one of the most powerful words in the English language. It does and should mean something extra-ordinary and it should not be abused... and it is the latter that seems to be happening more and more. Yes the holocaust was a genocide, but no the Bosnian massacre or the Saddam Hussien targeting of some Kurds was not. As for the Armenian case, due to the lack of accurate population numbers and the "victors write the history" aspect, then it is hard to call it a genocide... ethnic cleansing sure, but not genocide.
    Stop making excuses Dane. We are all well aware of Hitler, of Mein Kampf. THE MAIN MOTIVATOR OF NAZI GERMANY WAS SOCIALISM AND WHITE SUPREMACY. Never make that mistake again. Its evident in the ideology, history, and actions of the Nazi's. Dont excuse the Nazi's again, nor ethnic cleansing.

    Im not trying to hear the nazi-appeasing euro view of holocausts.

    As you say, history is written by the victors. Think about what that means.

  2. #152
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    Re: Did the Ottoman Empire Commit Genocide Against the Armenians?

    Quote Originally Posted by Glen Contrarian View Post
    It happened, all right...but as so often the case (like Japan with the Rape of Nanking, what Britain did to India, and our own genocide of Native Americans), the ones who did it don't want to own up to it.
    I do not think you examples well chosen, really. The situations were quite different and I do not feel the native American population fared less well than those of many other popupopulations in the previous history, when they encountered a more forceful culture as they did, when the European one spread over the Americas.

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    Re: Did the Ottoman Empire Commit Genocide Against the Armenians?

    Quote Originally Posted by Andalublue View Post
    I think that all makes good, logical sense. The problem I have in discussing this matter (and if you think it's tricky discussing in on DP, try having the conversation with a bunch of Turks!) is that the word Genocide has been rendered meaningless by the politics of its official use in international diplomatic circles.

    You are quite right that by the definition you've given there's little doubt that the Ottoman Empire, driven by the fanatical nationalists of the CUP, did indeed commit genocide, intentionally so. But when, as you rightly point out, other equally clear acts of genocide are ignored, then the word loses its meaning.

    What are we meant to do with this debate? If we say "yes, that was genocide", what should be the consequence for Turkey, Armenia or in the international sphere? If we say that the Ottomans committed genocide, shouldn't we also open up the other issues already mentioned for reassessment? If not, why not?

    So, unequivocally, I think that the Ottomans committed genocide against the Armenians, whether the number of deaths involved was 400,000 at the lower estimate or 1.5 million at the upper. Should the Turkish government recognise that this 'shameful act' took place? Of course they should. As should all those deniers of genocides elsewhere in the world. If not, then why even use the word? Why insist on its use, recognise it, or prosecute its denial?
    Worry about the consequences after, first we must deal with the facts, because they matter.
    And as an honest question, do you see the US as someone who has committed a holocaust, ever?

  4. #154
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    Re: Did the Ottoman Empire Commit Genocide Against the Armenians?

    Quote Originally Posted by Andalublue View Post
    So, unequivocally, I think that the Ottomans committed genocide against the Armenians, whether the number of deaths involved was 400,000 at the lower estimate or 1.5 million at the upper. Should the Turkish government recognise that this 'shameful act' took place? Of course they should. As should all those deniers of genocides elsewhere in the world. If not, then why even use the word? Why insist on its use, recognise it, or prosecute its denial?
    Yes I agree but my point is also, if there can be 800k Armenian refugees out of an estimated (official) population of 1 million, then how on earth can 400k, let alone 1.5 million have been killed?

    There is so much miss-information stemming from allied propaganda and lack of real data, that the accusation of genocide is weak at best. Was there an forceful eviction of disloyal citizens? Yes, and people died during this, but was it genocide? Can we trust the widely accepted claim of 400k to 1.5 million dead, when official US and other nations estimations after the fact, clearly shows a large population of Armenian remaining in the Ottoman Empire or the areas in question. Why is this fact ignored, especially considering the population size estimates before war?

    I mean there has been forceful evictions of people many times, were they genocide? Look at Diego Garcia, part of the Chagos islands. Indigenous people were forcibly moved by the British on behalf of the Americans.. was this genocide? Not many died, but a specific cultural group was targeted over land by a superior power and moved from their land by force. That is like most of the definitions of genocide. When Stalin did something similar to the Tatars of Crimea, then was that genocide?

    Throwing the genocide word around on random cases of atrocities is dangerous.
    PeteEU

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    Re: Did the Ottoman Empire Commit Genocide Against the Armenians?

    Quote Originally Posted by US Conservative View Post
    Worry about the consequences after, first we must deal with the facts, because they matter.
    And as an honest question, do you see the US as someone who has committed a holocaust, ever?
    Yes the American Indian. You will of course deny this.

    But depending on the definition of genocide, then the US has been involved in several cases ranging from its colonies in the Philippines to Diego Garcia, to Greenland.
    PeteEU

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    Re: Did the Ottoman Empire Commit Genocide Against the Armenians?

    Quote Originally Posted by US Conservative View Post
    In your eyes, does that truly excuse anything?
    What do you propose to do about it? Many countries and people have committed genocide before and since- The Russian communists in Ukraine during the famine in Holdomor, The Isrealis in Lebanon, Henry Kissinger's meddling in Cambodia led to the Khmer Rouge taking power and the killing fields, etc. If you want to condemn the Turks for what they did then you ought to condemn them all.

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    Re: Did the Ottoman Empire Commit Genocide Against the Armenians?

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteEU View Post
    Okay a bit of historical word games here then and hypothetical. The main motivator of Nazi Germany was more land... does that mean the slaughter of Jews was not genocide? The extermination of Jews started after the war had begun. The reasons for the war had absolutely nothing to do with Jews. Persecution of Jews was mainstream across the planet, with the Germans just taking it to another level before the war. The treatment of Jews pre 1940 was not much different than the treatment of blacks in the US at the same time.

    So was the holocaust genocide or not?

    Again we are down to definitions and facts. To me the term genocide is one of the most powerful words in the English language. It does and should mean something extra-ordinary and it should not be abused... and it is the latter that seems to be happening more and more. Yes the holocaust was a genocide, but no the Bosnian massacre or the Saddam Hussien targeting of some Kurds was not. As for the Armenian case, due to the lack of accurate population numbers and the "victors write the history" aspect, then it is hard to call it a genocide... ethnic cleansing sure, but not genocide.
    Sometimes you let yourself get carried away.

  8. #158
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    Re: Did the Ottoman Empire Commit Genocide Against the Armenians?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hatuey View Post
    Few nations outside of Germany have accepted that they took part in a genocide.
    This is so true. It makes me wonder why so many people make such efforts to shame modern Turkey into recanting and yet ignore all the others. I'd like Turkey to recognise the Armenian genocide, since I think the evidence is fairly clear, but I want to see Russia, the UK, Belgium, France, Spain, the US, Australia, China, the former members of the Balkan League, the Triple Alliance, the Austro-Hungarians, the Portuguese and the Maoris all own up to shameful acts from their collective pasts.

    If anyone wants to create new threads on any of those other 'genocides', I'll be happy to contribute.
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    Re: Did the Ottoman Empire Commit Genocide Against the Armenians?

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteEU View Post
    Yes I agree but my point is also, if there can be 800k Armenian refugees out of an estimated (official) population of 1 million, then how on earth can 400k, let alone 1.5 million have been killed?
    I completely agree. I really don't believe the 1.5 million figure at all. I've read much too much that makes it unsustainable, but that really isn't the point. I thought it was you, back at the start of this thread, that said that it's not the numbers but the intent.

    There is so much miss-information stemming from allied propaganda and lack of real data, that the accusation of genocide is weak at best. Was there an forceful eviction of disloyal citizens? Yes, and people died during this, but was it genocide? Can we trust the widely accepted claim of 400k to 1.5 million dead, when official US and other nations estimations after the fact, clearly shows a large population of Armenian remaining in the Ottoman Empire or the areas in question. Why is this fact ignored, especially considering the population size estimates before war?
    Because population stats back then, and in a rambling, antiquated, decadent empire were impossible to obtain.

    I mean there has been forceful evictions of people many times, were they genocide? Look at Diego Garcia, part of the Chagos islands. Indigenous people were forcibly moved by the British on behalf of the Americans.. was this genocide? Not many died, but a specific cultural group was targeted over land by a superior power and moved from their land by force. That is like most of the definitions of genocide. When Stalin did something similar to the Tatars of Crimea, then was that genocide?

    Throwing the genocide word around on random cases of atrocities is dangerous.
    Except that there is plenty of documentary evidence that proves a concerted campaign against Armenians, all Armenians within the empire. It's wrong to say that Armenians in Istanbul and the west were left unmolested, they were subject to 'resettlement' too. There is also plenty of attested evidence by reliable sources that proves that 'resettlement' was to have fatal consequences. Read that Taner Akcam book that's already been cited. I was as sceptical as you, probably more so, before I read it. It's useful because it's written by a Turkish academic that had a lot of access to documentation that no Armenian or foreign academic would be able to access.
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    Re: Did the Ottoman Empire Commit Genocide Against the Armenians?

    Quote Originally Posted by US Conservative View Post
    Worry about the consequences after, first we must deal with the facts, because they matter.
    And as an honest question, do you see the US as someone who has committed a holocaust, ever?
    Of course I do. How would you describe the Indian wars, clearances and Trail of Tears?
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