View Poll Results: Did the Ottoman Empire Commit Genocide Against the Armenians?

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Thread: Did the Ottoman Empire Commit Genocide Against the Armenians?

  1. #131
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    Re: Did the Ottoman Empire Commit Genocide Against the Armenians?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hatuey View Post
    Armenian Genocide denial - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia





    Would you like to try this again? So what do we have? NONE of the people who originally signed that document agreed to sign it again. Most of them were paid for by the Turkish government. A Turkish politician admitted that it was useless to try and rehash the matter because there was no support for it anymore except for one person. And you're calling into question a guy because he's a British Armenian? You're a desperate revisionist.
    No I'm not.

    What I most object to is your fixation on this topic. There are matters approaching genocide now in the ME, though the numbers low due to ongoing persecutions. Turkey is not one of the countries involved. So it is debating an irrelevant past instead of a current reality.

    I also object to your declaring atrocities by others in the same conflict are irrelevant and declaring the cause of the conflict leading to atrocities are irrelevant. Basically, you declare everything you post has no relevancy to anything.

    Good research you did, BTW. If academia is just bought, then no information is of any value. Again, your sources are Armenians. The bias obvious.

    I do not believe there was an Armenian genocide distinction for other large scale atrocities in that same conflict. And the Armenian population had become a military enemy, including Armenian women - and on a MASS scale. If an average of children and old folks excluded, about 1 in 6 "civilian" Armenians was militarily at war with the Ottomans and within the Ottoman Empire. And an estimated 40,000 were non-uniformed combatants, making them "terrorist insurgents" by current definitions.

    Most deaths in that approximate decade+ of war was by disease, the second largest cause starvation. Dying by war or violence was the 3rd cause. Even among the military, the leading cause of death was disease, not war. Disease is not genocide, but can be genocidal.

    If you want to declare WWI was a genocide for some reason, I don't see a reason to argue with that as it is just a word.

    Did you answer whether you are Armenians? I can't recall.

  2. #132
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    Re: Did the Ottoman Empire Commit Genocide Against the Armenians?

    Quote Originally Posted by joko104 View Post
    No I'm not.
    Considering you're citing the admittedly revisionist claims of people paid for by the Turkish government? I think you are. Remember Joko, the guy I posted is a scholar of Armenian descent, that's what you determined was enough for him to be biased. As opposed to the many scholars you relied on which have proven financial links to the Turkish government. If you're going to depend on REVISIONIST sources to make your claims, go ahead. However, the writing is now on the wall and it's clear to everyone just what lengths you're willing to go to in order to make a case and deny the deaths of Armenians at the hands of the Ottoman Empire.

    Did you answer whether you are Armenians? I can't recall.
    Lmao. No. You however are a revisionist.
    I refuse to accept the view that mankind is so tragically bound to the starless midnight of racism and war that the bright daybreak of peace and brotherhood can never become a reality. - MLK

  3. #133
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    Re: Did the Ottoman Empire Commit Genocide Against the Armenians?

    My exploration of documents and records relating to the Ottoman Sultan was that initially he was ordering that Armenians be relocated to Jordan, Libya and other areas away from the front and not to Armenian - anticipating they would become military adversaries. That prediction was very accurate.

    As it was clear the empire and war was lost, and with Armenians on a mass scale - both as tens of thousands of non-uniformed insurgents and 150,000 strong as soldiers - I don't doubt the Sultan decreed kill all Armenians. Yet in context that also does not equate to a genocide, only that the increasingly irrelevant Sultan wanted one.

    Hitler wanted all Germans to die if the war lost. Japan's military took a fight-to-the-last Japanese attitude too. So then I can claim that Germany engaged in genocide against Germans and Japan engaged in genocide against the Japanese because their defeated leaders wanted everyone to die with them?

    People want the word "genocide" attached to the atrocities ONLY by one side in a horrific war - that occurred because the West and Russia wanted Ottoman territory and knew the Ottoman Empire couldn't possibly survive. To this day, to various degrees, Western powers and Russia control most of the old Ottoman Empire for colonial, imperialistic and economic reasons.

    You declare all that irrelevant. I say it is what is more relevant, including in relation to Armenian civilian deaths. You want to accuse 1 boogie man - the Sultan - like people blame one boogie man - Hitler. But it isn't that simplistic or easily written off in my opinion. It is in yours.

    So... given your opinion since the Sultan is dead, there is exactly no relevancy in the slightest possible and hasn't been for nearly 100 years. I see these matters as relevant and topical to this day. It could be argued that the conflicts generated by WWI have never been concluded - only highly reduced - and now they are roaring back because it was not just about the Ottomans, but about the Muslims under attack by the West and Russia to take control of them, their land and their natural resources.

    Iran calls for "Death to America." So, genocide? ISIS calls for death to all how oppose them. Has there BEEN a genocide? They want one. Is there one going on?

    The battle, that war between the West against Muslims over their land and their resources is still being fought as I post this - though YOU see NO relevancy whatsoever. It should be called the 100 year war as that's how long it's been going on now. Actually longer.
    Last edited by joko104; 04-07-15 at 10:48 PM.

  4. #134
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    Re: Did the Ottoman Empire Commit Genocide Against the Armenians?

    Quote Originally Posted by joko104 View Post
    My exploration of documents and records relating to the Ottoman Sultan was that initially he was ordering that Armenians be relocated to Jordan, Libya and other areas away from the front and not to Armenian - anticipating they would become military adversaries. That prediction was very accurate.

    As it was clear the empire and war was lost, and with Armenians on a mass scale - both as tens of thousands of non-uniformed insurgents and 150,000 strong as soldiers - I don't doubt the Sultan decreed kill all Armenians. Yet in context that also does not equate to a genocide, only that the increasingly irrelevant Sultan wanted one.

    Hitler wanted all Germans to die if the war lost. Japan's military took a fight-to-the-last Japanese attitude too. So then I can claim that Germany engaged in genocide against Germans and Japan engaged in genocide against the Japanese because their defeated leaders wanted everyone to die with them?

    People want the word "genocide" attached to the atrocities ONLY by one side in a horrific war - that occurred because the West and Russia wanted Ottoman territory and knew the Ottoman Empire couldn't possibly survive. To this day, to various degrees, Western powers and Russia control most of the old Ottoman Empire for colonial, imperialistic and economic reasons.

    You declare all that irrelevant. I say it is what is more relevant, including in relation to Armenian civilian deaths. You want to accuse 1 boogie man - the Sultan - like people blame one boogie man - Hitler. But it isn't that simplistic or easily written off in my opinion. It is in yours.

    So... given your opinion since the Sultan is dead, there is exactly no relevancy in the slightest possible and hasn't been for nearly 100 years. I see these matters as relevant and topic to this day. It could be argued that the conflicts generated by WWI have never been concluded - only highly reduced - and that now they roaring back because it was not just about the Ottomans, but about the Muslims under attack by the West and Russia to take control of them, their land and their natural resources.
    The battle, that war, is still being fought as I post this - though YOU see NO relevancy whatsoever.
    The Ottoman Empire created policies which it knew directly led to the death of hundreds of thousands. This is a fact of history like 6 million Jews were killed by the Nazis. You tried to refute it using demonstrably revisionist statements from scholars paid for by the Turkish government. You had to swallow your crow and try to move on to another subject that has little relevance to the topic at hand. You've been doing that since you came into the thread. When nobody falls for it, you move on to your next absurd claim that dismiss the facts of the matter.

    Remember Joko:

    1. 85% of Armenians were either killed or forcefully removed from the Ottoman Empire.
    2. Their property was confiscated by the state.
    3. The Ottoman government had full knowledge of the effects their policies were having and did nothing.
    4. Accounts of the genocide are corroborated by observers from the period and survivors.
    5. The person who coined the term 'genocide' did so after observing what the Ottoman Empire did to Armenians.

    That's a genocide, joko and you're a revisionist.

    I refuse to accept the view that mankind is so tragically bound to the starless midnight of racism and war that the bright daybreak of peace and brotherhood can never become a reality. - MLK

  5. #135
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    Re: Did the Ottoman Empire Commit Genocide Against the Armenians?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hatuey View Post
    Considering you're citing the admittedly revisionist claims of people paid for by the Turkish government? I think you are. Remember Joko, the guy I posted is a scholar of Armenian descent, that's what you determined was enough for him to be biased. As opposed to the many scholars you relied on which have proven financial links to the Turkish government. If you're going to depend on REVISIONIST sources to make your claims, go ahead. However, the writing is now on the wall and it's clear to everyone just what lengths you're willing to go to in order to make a case and deny the deaths of Armenians at the hands of the Ottoman Empire.


    Lmao. No. You however are a revisionist.
    To claim an Armenian is the best source is absurd. Many Nazis including at the camps denied there was a genocide. AH, obviously the best proof - in your opinion anyway.

    The underlined and bolded sentence is a lie and you know it too. What is clear is that the only civilian deaths you cared about then - or not - in that ongoing conflict were Armenians and no one else.

  6. #136
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    Re: Did the Ottoman Empire Commit Genocide Against the Armenians?

    Quote Originally Posted by joko104 View Post
    To claim an Armenian is the best source is absurd. Many Nazis including at the camps denied there was a genocide. AH, obviously the best proof - in your opinion anyway.

    The underlined and bolded sentence is a lie and you know it too. What is clear is that the only civilian deaths you cared about then - or not - in that ongoing conflict were Armenians and no one else.
    I thought he was British, joko? First you argued that the guy being a 'British victor' made his research inadmissible in debate. Now, being an Armenian makes his research inadmissible. I won't ask you which is it because it's clear that you'd never even heard of this guy before this conversation. It's also clear that you believe that the only arguments that should be taken into consideration are those funded by the Turkish government. Hell, you posted that revisionist crap and now you can't even point out what part of my link is wrong based on the research alone.

    That leaves us with what? I have a scholar who is supported by literally hundreds of publications and scholars around the world, and you have 69 scholars who no longer want to be associated with denying the Armenian genocide, and 1 guy who was being paid by the Turkish government. Are you even keeping record of how badly you've lost this debate?
    I refuse to accept the view that mankind is so tragically bound to the starless midnight of racism and war that the bright daybreak of peace and brotherhood can never become a reality. - MLK

  7. #137
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    Re: Did the Ottoman Empire Commit Genocide Against the Armenians?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hatuey View Post
    The Ottoman Empire created policies which it knew directly led to the death of hundreds of thousands. This is a fact of history like 6 million Jews were killed by the Nazis. You tried to refute it using demonstrably revisionist statements from scholars paid for by the Turkish government. You had to swallow your crow and try to move on to another subject that has little relevance to the topic at hand. You've been doing that since you came into the thread. When nobody falls for it, you move on to your next absurd claim that dismiss the facts of the matter.

    Remember Joko:

    1. 85% of Armenians were either killed or forcefully removed from the Ottoman Empire.
    2. Their property was confiscated by the state.
    3. The Ottoman government had full knowledge of the effects their policies were having and did nothing.
    4. Accounts of the genocide are corroborated by observers from the period and survivors.
    5. The person who coined the term 'genocide' did so after observing what the Ottoman Empire did to Armenians.

    That's a genocide, joko and you're a revisionist.

    Even your own numbers contradict your first claim as there were 3,000,000 Armenians in the Ottoman empire.
    Property confiscated does not equate to genocide and I could give almost countless examples in world history.
    Doing nothing about atrocities does not equate to doing atrocities nor to genocide
    Others of the period deny there was a genocide

    As for the last, you degrade to declaring by definition Armenian deaths by the Ottomans equates to the meaning of the word "genocide" - therefore if one Armenian was killed the by definition that death was genocide. Pointless.

    I'm not a revisionist, but your a minimalist and from a bigoted position since no deaths, no atrocities within the same conflict period nor any causes by anyone both Turks is relevant to you. Nothing matters or is relevant but hatred of Turks, only Turks.

    In summary of my view. There were massive amounts of atrocities in the entirety of WWI and prior to it in that region. There were atrocities against the Turks on a wide scale for ethnic cleansing and genocide in the region of the Balkins and Cacucus. There were wide spread atrocities against Armenians, Greeks and Assyrians. WWI was an invasive war against the Ottoman Empire - accordingly also against Muslims, but the Christian West and Christian Russia, who defined Turks and Arabs as racially inferior - for the purpose of taking most of the Ottoman Empire and turning those regions and Countries into Western colonies for the purpose of taking their resources.

    I do not see the atrocities against the Armenians as rising to what most people define as "genocide" - but also think bandying over the word is irrelevant. I do not see the atrocities of that long war as uniquely or distinctly by Ottomans or that Armenians were uniquely or distinction the only victims of atrocities on a mass scale. Both are subjects you refuse to even discuss.

    Because I do not attach the word "genocide" to it nor see Ottomans as the only evil-doers who suffered no relevant atrocities and Armenians as only victims and the only victims does not mean I see the deaths of those Armenians as any more evil that you do. Bickering over a word does not define ethical comparison between two people. In fact, elsewhere on the forum I am under fire seriously for raging against a different genocide.

    I have no idea why you have your strong feelings. I know why I have mine but also prefer not to say. No, there is no Turk in my history or relationships or even casually. Can remember ever meeting at Turk.

    In my opinion, that horrific war of Western conquest and imperialism has never really ended and there is a growing insurgency that continues against Western control, influence, retaliation for the past and opposition to the political boundaries and systems of government dictated by the West ever since.

    I think our "debate" has run it's course, don't you? Let's quit before this difference of opinion evolving to just a clash of words intermixed with insults that harms what respect we may have for each other.

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    Re: Did the Ottoman Empire Commit Genocide Against the Armenians?

    Quote Originally Posted by joko104 View Post
    To claim an Armenian is the best source is absurd. Many Nazis including at the camps denied there was a genocide. AH, obviously the best proof - in your opinion anyway.

    The underlined and bolded sentence is a lie and you know it too. What is clear is that the only civilian deaths you cared about then - or not - in that ongoing conflict were Armenians and no one else.
    Why? Wouldn't he have more cultural and historical context?

    Im Greek, the Turks committed genocide there too. I dont understand your selective logic.

  9. #139
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    Re: Did the Ottoman Empire Commit Genocide Against the Armenians?

    Quote Originally Posted by joko104 View Post
    Even your own numbers contradict your first claim as there were 3,000,000 Armenians in the Ottoman empire.
    If you're going to start with more lies, you better give up. My claim discussed 2.3 million Armenians in the Ottoman Empire. After 1922, only 15% of that initial 2.3 million remained. This was pointed out to you when you falsely claimed it the first time. Now you're doing it again and I'm not falling for it. Trying to interject more subjects into this specific issue just makes you look as desperate as you when you first started writing. Post some more revisionist crap so I can call you on it again?
    I refuse to accept the view that mankind is so tragically bound to the starless midnight of racism and war that the bright daybreak of peace and brotherhood can never become a reality. - MLK

  10. #140
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    Re: Did the Ottoman Empire Commit Genocide Against the Armenians?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hatuey View Post
    If you're going to start with more lies, you better give up. My claim discussed 2.3 million Armenians in the Ottoman Empire. After 1922, only 15% of that initial 2.3 million remained. This was pointed out to you when you falsely claimed it the first time. Now you're doing it again and I'm not falling for it. Trying to interject more subjects into this specific issue just makes you look as desperate as you when you first started writing. Post some more revisionist crap so I can call you on it again?
    That statistic I found was 3,000,000 Armenians. 15% remaining does NOT equate to 85% killed like you claim. They're called refuges of war. Every heard of that word?

    Apparently you also count Armenians who were militarily fighting against the Ottomans as casualties of genocide. Any death of any Armenian of any reason was genocide. If a Armenian died in labor the Turks killed her. Get hit by a truck, it's the Sultan's fault. The Sultan caused cancer and heart attacks too. Anyone who died of a contagious disease - the Ottoman Sultan infected them. Like a "thanks Obama" joke - only you're serious.

    Exactly EVERY historian on that war claims the #1 cause of death was disease. But not you. The Ottoman Sultan killed everyone. No Armenian died who had not been ordered killed by the Sultan. He controlled all virus and bacteria too. No one Armenian died unless ordered to die by the Sultan. So says your Armenian scholar. Absurd claims like that.

    There has been a 99+% of Christians in the ME. Those damn Muslims genocided ALL of them! You logic.

    The reduction of Christians and Jews in the ME is significantly greater. Many fled. Many Armenians fled.

    All I can figure is since hating on Muslims to justify Western continued control (ie all Muslims are evil) won't really fly well on the forum, you convert it to all Ottomans were evil genocidal murderers. Otherwise there is no point to this thread since you deny there is any modern relevancy whatsoever. Do you think the Incas were genocidal? That is as relevant in your opinion.

    Other than you hate who was the Ottoman Sultan in WWI, is there ANY relevancy of your messages whatsoever of any kind?

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