View Poll Results: Did the Ottoman Empire Commit Genocide Against the Armenians?

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Thread: Did the Ottoman Empire Commit Genocide Against the Armenians?

  1. #111
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    Re: Did the Ottoman Empire Commit Genocide Against the Armenians?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hatuey View Post
    This thread is about the Ottoman Empire in the 1910s Joko. Try and keep up?



    Armenian Genocide of 1915: An Overview - New York Times



    We're talking, once again, about the Ottoman Empire. Not the entire Armenian population. However, even if we were - your argument would be absurd too. It would mean there was not Rwandan Massacre because there are were many Tutsis in other countries of Africa who were not affected by the massacre.



    Your continued need to ignore the subject title and try to make it about what you want to talk about makes you look like the revisionist you've already proven that you are Joko. Do you run into book clubs near your house and scream that they should be discussing the books you want to read too? Because that's what you're doing here. The thread is about the Armenian Genocide. Not the Genocide Joko Thinks We Should Talk About.
    You are who is ignoring the topic to just rant a single line declaring everything relevant is irrelevant. Nor do you want to discuss it in any relevant terms even at that time in history.

    Nor are you consistent, but continue to contradict yourself. You claim 1.5 million civilian deaths equals "a genocide" of itself. When I point out the USA deliberately killed more Japanese and German civilians by carpet and firebombing civilian cities killing more than 1.5 million, you completely contradict claiming that doesn't count because it wasn't for the goal of totally exterminating all Japanese and Germans. Correct, it was to terrorize their civilians to break their will to fight. Any proof that wasn't the motives of the Ottoman Empire too?

    The USA didn't have 40,000 Japanese and German non-uniformed guerilla fighters in the USA. Didn't have 150,000 Japanese and German soldiers on US soil. Didn't have 3 million German and Japanese civilians providing those fighters and soldiers, nor housing, feeding them and hiding them. Yet That was the situation with the Ottomans in relation to Armenians. Still, YOU claim what the Ottoman Empire did was "a genocide" and what the USA did wasn't. Just because you say so.

    Why? Because of the American view that dropping bombs on civilians doesn't count while shooting civilians in the head does?

    Nor do you want to discuss that Armenians WERE at war with the Ottoman Empire, including militarily and by acts of terrorism (non-uniformed), nor of "genocide" against Ottomans in the Balkins and Caucacus. You militantly resist discussing it in the context of the war, refuse to discuss the actions by the Armenians, nor even what the war was about. Certainly you don't want to discuss the persecution and subjugation of Ottomans that came after the war and what the Ottomans were fighting against either.

    The British, French, USA and Russians were not coming to be liberators, they were coming to take the Ottoman Empire's land - and to subjugate all those people for themselves to take all their resources. Which is exactly what happened and is largely the basis for the boundaries to this day, other than WWII adjusted those. No, the Ottomans fighting against being overtake and ruled by the Western countries and Russia isn't relevant either to you. That Armenians were fighting as soldiers and as non-uniformed insurgents nearly 200,000 strong? That's irrelevant to you too.

    The ONLY thing relevant to you is that you hate the Ottoman Empire. So, who the hell cares?

    I hate what the Spanish did to the Caribbean peoples. I hate what white people did to NA. All sorts of genocides in history in reflection I hate. Do I like that the Ottomans killed Armenian civilians? No. Do I like that Ottoman civilians were killed in massive numbers prior to and during this in the Balkins and Caucacus? No. Do I like the subjugation of all those people by the Western powers and Russia? No. Do I like the Russian Genocide against Armenians? No.

    What you absolutely declare is irrelevant is any relevancy to the topic of the Armenian genocide. You INSIST that you claim is irrelevant to anything - so then it is from your perspective. And if it is irrelevant to anything, why should anyone care in the slightest?

    You hate Ottomans. REALLY REALLY hate Ottomans. Hate them totally. The only people you hate from that historical era too. We all got that. Why should anyone care if that's all there is to it?

    Are you Armenian?
    Last edited by joko104; 04-07-15 at 07:14 PM.

  2. #112
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    Re: Did the Ottoman Empire Commit Genocide Against the Armenians?

    Can I ask....

    Why do some feel that Turkey *needs* to acknowledge it?

    Is there anything gained by Turkey's acknowledgement of this 100 year old incident?

  3. #113
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    Re: Did the Ottoman Empire Commit Genocide Against the Armenians?

    Quote Originally Posted by joko104 View Post
    You are who is ignoring the topic to just rant a single line declaring everything relevant is irrelevant. Nor do you want to discuss it in any relevant terms even at that time in history.

    Nor are you consistent, but continue to contradict yourself. You claim 1.5 million civilian deaths equals "a genocide" of itself.
    That is patently false. I have said that there were policies in place which made what happened to the Armenians a genocide. You may want to try harder to misrepresent somebody's position. The rest of your post is absolute garbage based on a misrepresentation.

    You hate Ottomans. REALLY REALLY hate Ottomans. Hate them totally. The only people you hate from that historical era too. We all got that. Why should anyone care if that's all there is to it?
    It didn't take you long to get to this point, did it? Lol. It's getting old, Joko.
    I refuse to accept the view that mankind is so tragically bound to the starless midnight of racism and war that the bright daybreak of peace and brotherhood can never become a reality. - MLK

  4. #114
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    Re: Did the Ottoman Empire Commit Genocide Against the Armenians?

    Would the USA do such a "genocide?"

    The USA is attacked by Russia and China - massive numbers of their troops in the USA so limited application of our nuclear weapons. Numerous other countries join in with them including Mexico and many S. American countries as allies, including Latino Americans.

    With this, 250,000 American Latinos engage in non-uniform killing of non-Latino Americans. 2 million American Latinos more join the Mexican military within the USA also at war with the USA. Latino civilians are housing, feeding, hiding, supporting and proving more non-uniformed insurgents and troops - and it increasingly clear that the USA is going to lose, all Americans except those who switched sides were going to be subjugated, hundreds of thousands imprisoned, American civilian and military leadership imprisoned, tortured or killed.

    Do you believe the orders to the USA military would be "whatever you do, be nice to Latinos?" Or would it be to round them up, put them in concentration camps and use "extreme prejudice" towards Latino communities where the non-uniformed Latino "terrorists" were hiding and fighting out of?

    Nothing REALLY has changes or every will about total war for which national survival and known subsequent subjugation, occupation and retribution by the invaders is known. The USA, any country in the world, would do little different than the Ottoman Empire. We know this because that is exactly what happens. It's happening in many places in the ME now. That is what ALWAYS happens.

    Thus, the "Armenian genocide" isn't extra dark moment in human history. It is the reality of invasive wars. Always has been. Always will be. That's why full scale war is such a terrible thing and why civilians should do all they can to keep that from happening. The way to do that is to be SO militarily powerful no one tries - and then there won't be any war-based slaughters and genocides. Otherwise there will be.
    Last edited by joko104; 04-07-15 at 07:44 PM.

  5. #115
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    Re: Did the Ottoman Empire Commit Genocide Against the Armenians?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hatuey View Post
    That is patently false. I have said that there were policies in place which made what happened to the Armenians a genocide. You may want to try harder to misrepresent somebody's position. The rest of your post is absolute garbage based on a misrepresentation.



    It didn't take you long to get to this point, did it? Lol. It's getting old, Joko.
    Yes, I am I replied that "policies in place that make a genocide possible" does not equate to ordering the genocide of an entire ethnic group. Your asserting a deliberate genocide happened by claiming it was made possible to happen is false logic.

    The Western powers "had policies in place that made the Nazi holocausts possible." That does not mean the Western powers ordered or caused the holocaust. You're is just bad logic.

    But, to keep it limited to JUST the Armenian genocide, the UK, France, USA and Russia had policies that made the Armenian "genocide" possible. Therefore, in your logic, they are responsible. In addition, had they not engaged in a war of conquest to take Ottoman Empire territory for themselves, there would have been no Armenian genocide, would there?

    It is my position is that it was the aggressive imperial and colonial purpose attacks against the Ottoman Empire - and soliciting Armenians to join in with the allied powers - which Armenians did in massive numbers - combined with genocide against Ottomans in the Balkins and Caucacus - that caused the Armenian genocide.

    Do you disagree that without the Western Powers and Russia proactively going to war for the purpose of taking Ottoman Empire territory there would have been no Armenian genocide? If not, why not? If so, then who is really to blame?

    Or do you also claim the causes of the Armenian genocide is totally irrelevant?
    Last edited by joko104; 04-07-15 at 07:35 PM.

  6. #116
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    Re: Did the Ottoman Empire Commit Genocide Against the Armenians?

    How many people have died for oil? It all began in WWI. The West in defeating the Ottoman Empire also seized and divided up all the oil of the ME.

    Is THAT also irrelevant? Seems very relevant, to this day. What is relevant is what was learned and how to avoid such happening again. Without that, the discussion has little value.
    Last edited by joko104; 04-07-15 at 07:45 PM.

  7. #117
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    Re: Did the Ottoman Empire Commit Genocide Against the Armenians?

    Quote Originally Posted by Caine View Post
    Can I ask....

    Why do some feel that Turkey *needs* to acknowledge it?

    Is there anything gained by Turkey's acknowledgement of this 100 year old incident?
    For one, Turkey didn't do the Armenian genocide, if that is what it was. Turkey didn't yet exist.

    The USA does not admit genocide of NAs. Japan does not admit genocide of Chinese. I could go on and on and on with that. Instead, they tend to admit something really bad happened - but not a GENOCIDE - and then explain there were may other considerations adding "things were different back then." And things were different back then. Sort of different anyway, only because circumstances are different.

  8. #118
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    Re: Did the Ottoman Empire Commit Genocide Against the Armenians?

    Quote Originally Posted by joko104 View Post
    Yes, I am I replied that "policies in place that make a genocide possible" does not equate to ordering the genocide of an entire ethnic group.
    So then you admit your initial presentation of my statements is absolute bull****? Good. The guy who coined the word acknowledged that it was inspired BY his observances of the Armenian genocide. Good grief, the Pashas knew that their policies would lead to the death of hundreds of thousands. Continuing to ignore that so you can focus on some imaginary notion that they needed to give an explicit order of genocide is absurd:

    http://www.gomidas.org/uploads/Talaa...20Genocide.pdf

    In the final analysis, the great majority of Ottoman Armenians were
    deported in 1915, and the great majority of these deportees were killed
    off through forced marches, privations, and outright massacres—as
    attested and corroborated by eyewitness accounts.36 Talaat’s report clearly
    shows that the deportation of Ottoman Armenians in 1915 was part of
    an effort that aimed at the destruction of Armenians.
    The object of the
    10 Talaat Pasha’s Report on the Armenian Genocide
    authorities was not a population transfer (tehcir) but the destruction of
    entire communities. This fact is quite apparent in the organization,
    implementation, and outcome of Talaat’s policies, as can be seen in the
    discrepancy between the number of Armenians who were deported, and
    the number of deportees who were found in the resettlement zone in
    1917. Talaat was well aware of this discrepancy since he closely supervised
    deportations throughout 1915–16. As his 1917 report shows, although
    over a million Armenians were deported, around 60,000 were counted in
    the resettlement zone outlined by the Ottoman government, another
    50,000 were found dispersed along deportation routes, and around
    100,000 were within their home provinces. Practically all of these
    survivors in the provinces were treated as captives and pressured to
    assimilate as Muslim-Turks.
    Again, continuing to ignore the facts of the matter so you can focus on all the other things you feel need some nonsensical attention do not change the fact that the Ottoman Empire implemented a policy that deliberately sought out the destruction of the Armenians.

    Your asserting a deliberate genocide happened by claiming it was made possible to happen is false logic.

    The Western powers "had policies in place that made the Nazi holocausts possible." That does not mean the Western powers ordered or caused the holocaust. You're is just bad logic.

    But, to keep it limited to JUST the Armenian genocide, the UK, France, USA and Russia had policies that made the Armenian "genocide" possible. Therefore, in your logic, they are responsible. In addition, had they not engaged in a war of conquest to take Ottoman Empire territory for themselves, there would have been no Armenian genocide, would there?

    It is my position is that it was the aggressive imperial and colonial purpose attacks against the Ottoman Empire - and soliciting Armenians to join in with the allied powers - which Armenians did in massive numbers - combined with genocide against Ottomans in the Balkins and Caucacus - that caused the Armenian genocide.

    Do you disagree that without the Western Powers and Russia proactively going to war for the purpose of taking Ottoman Empire territory - most notably oil - there would have been no Armenian genocide? If not, why not? If so, then who is really to blame?

    Or do you also claim the causes of the Armenian genocide is totally irrelevant?
    Still trying to turn attention away from the subject matter? Knock yourself out.
    I refuse to accept the view that mankind is so tragically bound to the starless midnight of racism and war that the bright daybreak of peace and brotherhood can never become a reality. - MLK

  9. #119
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    Re: Did the Ottoman Empire Commit Genocide Against the Armenians?

    Quote Originally Posted by Apocalypse View Post
    Honest question; What do they teach in Turkish history classes regarding the Armenians?
    smart jews always like turkey and you know why if you are good at history
    "Sovereignty is not given, it is taken." ATATÜRK

  10. #120
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    Re: Did the Ottoman Empire Commit Genocide Against the Armenians?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hatuey View Post
    So then you admit your initial presentation of my statements is absolute bull****? Good. The guy who coined the word acknowledged that it was inspired BY his observances of the Armenian genocide. Good grief, the Pashas knew that their policies would lead to the death of hundreds of thousands. Continuing to ignore that so you can focus on some imaginary notion that they needed to give an explicit order of genocide is absurd:

    http://www.gomidas.org/uploads/Talaa...20Genocide.pdf



    Again, continuing to ignore the facts of the matter so you can focus on all the other things you feel need some nonsensical attention do not change the fact that the Ottoman Empire implemented a policy that deliberately sought out the destruction of the Armenians.



    Still trying to turn attention away from the subject matter? Knock yourself out.
    That report was written by the victorious British against a dead person of an non-existent government that was replaced by a government of his enemies overseen by the British.

    Yeah, that's not bias source.

    You really do avoid any real discussion, don't you? There is no actual point to what you are posting. If challenged on whether it technically was an order to kill 100% of Armenians, you divert to claim mass deaths of civilians equates to genocide generally. When then the messages are in general terms, you insist that no it is specific.

    What is notable is that you declare any discussion of what has any relevant value is irrelevant, declaring your topic irrelevant other than to bandy over the definition of a word.

    So, once again, since this is ONLY technically about a word, in YOUR words a policy known to result in the deaths of hundreds of thousands isn't a "genocide" in a war situation. It is a certainty of war. Thus, your definition of genocide is any policy that is known will result in hundreds of thousands of deaths. Since the Armenian "genocide" was during war, all your definition does is define what happens in big wars. Thus, all major wars are "genocide" and all major sides in WWI including the Ottoman Empire engaged in policies known will cause hundreds of thousands of deaths, ie your definition of "genocide."

    What is the value of singling out the Ottomans for this within that definition in that same region in that same conflict? Absolutely none.
    Last edited by joko104; 04-07-15 at 08:56 PM.

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