View Poll Results: Did the Ottoman Empire Commit Genocide Against the Armenians?

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    33 89.19%
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Thread: Did the Ottoman Empire Commit Genocide Against the Armenians?

  1. #91
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    Re: Did the Ottoman Empire Commit Genocide Against the Armenians?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cryptic View Post
    Technically no, though in practical terms, yes.

    Genoicide is defined as an attempt to kill an entire group of people. As such, genocides have been rare (holocaust, Rwanda). The Turks attempted to kill any armenians living in certain areas which were deemed to be disloyal or potentially disloyal- and the Turks had a blanket definition of disloyalty that included every Armenian in those areas.

    But, Armenians living in the capital and other parts of western Turkey were not killed, or even detained. Thus, what the Turks did was technially not an attempt to kill all Armenians- just the real or perceived disloyal ones (which was a very large number).
    No it is not to kill all .
    Genoicide is defined as an attempt to kill an entire group of people
    The international legal definition of genocide - Prevent Genocide International
    Article II describes two elements of the crime of genocide:

    1) the mental element, meaning the "intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such", and

    2) the physical element which includes five acts described in sections a, b, c, d and e. A crime must include both elements to be called "genocide."
    Quote Originally Posted by Erod View Post
    The damage to the black community from all this will be devastating.
    Not only on public perception and reputation, but cops simply won't want to police these neighborhoods anymore.
    The shooter was later found to be white.

  2. #92
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    Re: Did the Ottoman Empire Commit Genocide Against the Armenians?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hatuey View Post
    This is one of the few likes you'll ever get from me. Treasure it. Keep it in a box. Whatever.
    Why do people feel they need to qualify a "like?" Team playing and concern of being seen as disloyal? Just curious.

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    Re: Did the Ottoman Empire Commit Genocide Against the Armenians?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hatuey View Post
    This is one of the few likes you'll ever get from me. Treasure it. Keep it in a box. Whatever.
    "Sovereignty is not given, it is taken." ATATÜRK

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    Re: Did the Ottoman Empire Commit Genocide Against the Armenians?

    Quote Originally Posted by Medusa View Post
    what kind of sources are they ?
    What sources are acceptable?
    Armenian Genocide - Facts & Summary - HISTORY.com
    On April 24, 1915, the Armenian genocide began. That day, the Turkish government arrested and executed several hundred Armenian intellectuals. After that, ordinary Armenians were turned out of their homes and sent on death marches through the Mesopotamian desert without food or water. Frequently, the marchers were stripped naked and forced to walk under the scorching sun until they dropped dead. People who stopped to rest were shot.

    At the same time, the Young Turks created a “Special Organization,” which in turn organized “killing squads” or “butcher battalions” to carry out, as one officer put it, “the liquidation of the Christian elements.” These killing squads were often made up of murderers and other ex-convicts. They drowned people in rivers, threw them off cliffs, crucified them and burned them alive. In short order, the Turkish countryside was littered with Armenian corpses.
    So where did 600 K go.
    Armenian Genocide of 1915: An Overview - New York Times

    On the eve of World War I, there were two million Armenians in the declining Ottoman Empire. By 1922, there were fewer than 400,000. The others — some 1.5 million — were killed in what historians consider a genocide.

    As David Fromkin put it in his widely praised history of World War I and its aftermath, “A Peace to End All Peace”: “Rape and beating were commonplace. Those who were not killed at once were driven through mountains and deserts without food, drink or shelter. Hundreds of thousands of Armenians eventually succumbed or were killed .”
    Armenian genocide - German guilt? | Germany | DW.DE | 06.03.2015
    In the German Reichstag on September 29, 1916, the diplomat Gottlieb von Jagow had to give parliament an account of the terrible events in Turkey, then the Ottoman Empire.

    It was about mass displacement and executions taking place in the eastern region of Anatolia. The German Empire was a colonial power there at the time and also an ally of the Ottoman government, which had previously initiated a mass persecution of Christian Armenians before the onset of World War I. "We did everything we could," stated Jagow in defense of Germany's passivity.
    Historian Christin Pschichholz from the University of Potsam has no doubts. After having read files at the German Foreign Ministry, she concludes that, "the German government had extensive information about the destructive policies regarding the Armenian population in the Ottoman Empire. Death marches, executions and forced labor: German diplomats painstakingly took note of everything happening around them at that time.
    Quote Originally Posted by Erod View Post
    The damage to the black community from all this will be devastating.
    Not only on public perception and reputation, but cops simply won't want to police these neighborhoods anymore.
    The shooter was later found to be white.

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    Re: Did the Ottoman Empire Commit Genocide Against the Armenians?

    Quote Originally Posted by Montecresto View Post
    Of course the US government doesn't recognise it, it doesn't even recognise its own.
    Pure politics is at play here. You know that as well as I.
    Quote Originally Posted by Erod View Post
    The damage to the black community from all this will be devastating.
    Not only on public perception and reputation, but cops simply won't want to police these neighborhoods anymore.
    The shooter was later found to be white.

  6. #96
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    Re: Did the Ottoman Empire Commit Genocide Against the Armenians?

    Quote Originally Posted by joko104 View Post
    I am discussing the topic far more than you are. You're devolved to just ranting about Armenian deaths.
    Nope, I've pointed out that it's a genocide. You've spent quite a few posts doing everything but try and discuss the topic. Throwing a dart at every map you can and hoping something sticks. Nothing has so far.

    The Armenians did become the enemy, while it could be debated as to why.

    The total number of guerrillas in these irregular bands was 40,000–50,000
    , according to Boghos Nubar, the president of the "Armenian National Delegation":

    In the Caucasus, where, without mentioning the 150,000 Armenians in the Imperial Russian Army, more than 40,000 of their volunteers helpeds to liberate part of the Armenian vilayets, and where, under the command of their leaders, Antranik and Nazerbekoff, they, alone among the peoples of the Caucasus, offered resistance to the Turkish armies, from the beginning of the Bolshevist withdrawal right up to the signing of an armistice.
    This has absolutely zero to do with the fact that there are still hundreds of thousands who had nothing to do with these guerrillas and were exterminated and marched to concentration camps. Whether the person was a law abiding citizen or not was irrelevant. All were marched and murdered with little regard for their actual complicity in these uprising. Your continued avoidance of this little fact just makes your case look weaker.

    Armenian fedayi - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Look at the photos. MOST of the most famous fighters did NOT wear uniforms. Tens of thousands of Armenian rebels fighting in civilian clothing in a war of survival - a war being lost - is going result in massive civilian casualties. The USA turned against civilians in the Civil War and bomber targeting of civilians in WWII against both Japan and Germany killed more than 1.5 million combined.

    If we stick to JUST taking about the Ottomans and the Armenians, if you read the history there was an evolved escalation of adversity between the two sides and they did become military enemies. The Armenians were largely fighting in civilian clothing disregarding the conventions of war and hiding within civilian populations, who supported and provided for them.

    Do you think those Armenian guerillas killed Ottoman civilians? Who many Ottoman civilians were killed in the Balkins and Caucacus? Do you know? Claim that is irrelevant?
    From your link:

    Armenian fedayi - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Fedayi (Western Armenian: Ֆէտայի Fedayi; Eastern Armenian: Ֆիդայի Fidayi), also known as the Armenian irregular units or Armenian militia, were Armenian civilians who voluntarily left their families to form self-defense units and armed bands in reaction to the mass murder of Armenians and the pillage of Armenian villages by criminals, tribal Kurdish forces, and Hamidian guards during the reign of Abdul Hamid II in late 19th and early 20th centuries, known as the Hamidian massacres. Their ultimate goal was always to gain Armenian autonomy (Armenakans) or independence (Dashnaks, Hunchaks) depending on their ideology and the degree of oppression visited on Armenians.
    It's clear from your own links that these troops were created for self defence. Using them to establish a rationale for the policies the Ottoman Empire embraced to justify the destruction of Armenian culture within its borders makes you look desperate now joko.
    I refuse to accept the view that mankind is so tragically bound to the starless midnight of racism and war that the bright daybreak of peace and brotherhood can never become a reality. - MLK

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    Re: Did the Ottoman Empire Commit Genocide Against the Armenians?

    "Sovereignty is not given, it is taken." ATATÜRK

  8. #98
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    Re: Did the Ottoman Empire Commit Genocide Against the Armenians?

    Quote Originally Posted by Medusa View Post
    new york times ? haha )
    Ladies and Gentlemen, I give you the person in this thread who claims to know more than everyone else, yet hasn't posted a single source for anything.
    I refuse to accept the view that mankind is so tragically bound to the starless midnight of racism and war that the bright daybreak of peace and brotherhood can never become a reality. - MLK

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    Re: Did the Ottoman Empire Commit Genocide Against the Armenians?

    Quote Originally Posted by Medusa View Post
    new york times ? haha )
    NT Times, free press, something you can laugh about as Turkey no longer has any.
    2 other links, they must have been valid then.
    Quote Originally Posted by Erod View Post
    The damage to the black community from all this will be devastating.
    Not only on public perception and reputation, but cops simply won't want to police these neighborhoods anymore.
    The shooter was later found to be white.

  10. #100
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    Re: Did the Ottoman Empire Commit Genocide Against the Armenians?

    Quote Originally Posted by joko104 View Post
    I am discussing the topic far more than you are. You're devolved to just ranting about Armenian deaths.

    The Armenians did become the enemy, while it could be debated as to why.

    The total number of guerrillas in these irregular bands was 40,000–50,000
    , according to Boghos Nubar, the president of the "Armenian National Delegation":

    In the Caucasus, where, without mentioning the 150,000 Armenians in the Imperial Russian Army, more than 40,000 of their volunteers helpeds to liberate part of the Armenian vilayets, and where, under the command of their leaders, Antranik and Nazerbekoff, they, alone among the peoples of the Caucasus, offered resistance to the Turkish armies, from the beginning of the Bolshevist withdrawal right up to the signing of an armistice.

    Armenian fedayi - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Look at the photos. MOST of the most famous fighters did NOT wear uniforms. Tens of thousands of Armenian rebels fighting in civilian clothing in a war of survival - a war being lost - is going result in massive civilian casualties. The USA turned against civilians in the Civil War and bomber targeting of civilians in WWII against both Japan and Germany killed more than 1.5 million combined.

    Total number of Armenians at war with the Ottoman in military terms, nearly 200,000 - and tens of thousands in civilian clothing.

    If we stick to JUST taking about the Ottomans and the Armenians, if you read the history there was an evolved escalation of adversity between the two sides and they did become military enemies. The Armenians were often fighting in civilian clothing disregarding the conventions of war and hiding within civilian populations, who supported and provided for them.

    It has ONLY been in THE most recent wars where it was accepted that non-uniform enemy can hide behind civilians for which they can not then be attacked.

    Do you think those Armenian guerillas killed Ottoman civilians? Who many Ottoman civilians were killed in the Balkins and Caucacus? Do you know? Claim that is irrelevant?
    To the bolded. Yes, and there's good reason for that shift to modern opinion on that, and this Armenian genocide is exactly one of.
    Killing one person is murder, killing 100,000 is foreign policy

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