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Is it wise for Christians to link the survival of Christianity to gay discrimination?

Re: Is it wise for Christians to link the survival of Christianity to gay discriminat

If those who love to wrap themselves with the name "Christian" would live his teachings instead of perverting them and taking his name in vain....there would be no conflict.

That is unfortunately not true. Christ taught a definite Doctrine of Sin, which the modern West rejects.
 
Re: Is it wise for Christians to link the survival of Christianity to gay discriminat

If you're a baker who advertised his baking services, it isn't violating your religion to bake what you advertised. Wal-Mart can't follow you home and make sure you aren't using that KY jelly to masturbate. No one is forcing Christians to get gay married, they're simply saying if you advertise a service you can't deny it to someone based on their sexual orientation. That's discrimination, not a violation of your religion.

Nowhere in the Bible does it say you can't interact economically with homosexuals. Why doesn't it violate their religion to sell me, an atheist, a pizza?

You are conflating two non-identical things. Selling pizza slices to anyone who walks through the door =/= catering a gay wedding. One of these (as the post you were responding to delineated) is taking part in a ceremony that violates your faith.
 
Re: Is it wise for Christians to link the survival of Christianity to gay discriminat

That is unfortunately not true. Christ taught a definite Doctrine of Sin, which the modern West rejects.

Actually...it is very true. Christ would look at the bigots of today in exactly the same way he viewed the Pharisees....because they are almost exactly the same.
 
Re: Is it wise for Christians to link the survival of Christianity to gay discriminat

Actually...it is very true. Christ would look at the bigots of today in exactly the same way he viewed the Pharisees....because they are almost exactly the same.

:shrug: I'm sure there is plenty of overlap between the Pharisee's with their endless, pointless, ever-finer delineation of rules and modern promulgators of ever-more-complex Speech Codes.

However, the fact remains that Jesus preached things that the modern West likes to reject and ignore - Christians living in faithfulness to His teachings are absolutely going to run up against the world. And, as Jesus said, that is to be expected.
 
Re: Is it wise for Christians to link the survival of Christianity to gay discriminat

You are conflating two non-identical things. Selling pizza slices to anyone who walks through the door =/= catering a gay wedding. One of these (as the post you were responding to delineated) is taking part in a ceremony that violates your faith.

I've actually never seen a wedding that provides food during the ceremony. It's almost always the after party. If you don't want to cater to parties, don't cater to parties. You don't get to discriminate against someone just because you find them icky. When Jesus fed the poor he didn't ask about their sexual orientation first.

It would be no different than if they refused to cater to a party of black people because it "violated their religion" to feed them.
So why is it on the homosexual top ten to discriminate against Christians? I hear the pizza restaurant in IN even got death threats.
Huck may be a nut, or may be not, I don't know him well enough to say. Let him speak just as everyone else is entitled to their opinions.
Everyone seems to cheer when someone speaks out against Christians. May be he has a point, although he could have made a better argument.

Only in Christian victimhood land is not being allowed to discriminate discrimination. Learn to treat your fellow human beings with respect.
 
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Re: Is it wise for Christians to link the survival of Christianity to gay discriminat

So why is it on the homosexual top ten to discriminate against Christians?

It's not. 99% of homosexuals just want to be left alone without being discriminated against.
 
Re: Is it wise for Christians to link the survival of Christianity to gay discriminat

:shrug: I'm sure there is plenty of overlap between the Pharisee's with their endless, pointless, ever-finer delineation of rules and modern promulgators of ever-more-complex Speech Codes.

However, the fact remains that Jesus preached things that the modern West likes to reject and ignore - Christians living in faithfulness to His teachings are absolutely going to run up against the world. And, as Jesus said, that is to be expected.

That is a complete distortion of Jesus based on his teachings. Christians who live in faithfulness would not run up against the world at all. There are many, I would say the vast majority, of Christians who live fully his teachings and have no conflict. Those who have conflict with the modern world are the so called "Christians" who are much closer to the Pharisees of Christ's day than they are to his true followers. The Pharisees who loved to stand on the corner and pray so that others could view them....are like the radical "Christians" today who feel the need to push their perverted religion into the public square....who love to "worship" in public so that others may view them....the ones who shun those who they view as "unworthy" in order to enlighten their piousness. Most Christians are good people who live his teachings...they are almost never the ones who proclaim themselves "Christian".
 
Re: Is it wise for Christians to link the survival of Christianity to gay discriminat

It's not. 99% of homosexuals just want to be left alone without being discriminated against.

...as does 99% of any group.... including Christians.
 
Re: Is it wise for Christians to link the survival of Christianity to gay discriminat

...as does 99% of any group.... including Christians.

No, many Christians openly oppose homosexuals and seek to sabotage their acceptance within society. They try to elect people who support an anti-gay agenda, so that life can be made miserable for them where possible.
 
Re: Is it wise for Christians to link the survival of Christianity to gay discriminat

I've actually never seen a wedding that provides food during the ceremony. It's almost always the after party.

:shrug: it's all part of the celebration. If it violates people's faith to take part, they shouldn't be force to do so.

You don't get to discriminate against someone just because you find them icky.

:roll: you are impugning motives onto others that they do not have.

It's the flip coin of accusing you of taking the stance you do only because you dislike Christians and want to stamp their belief system out of the public sphere.

When did we lose the ability to recognize that people can come to differing conclusions from good motivations?

When Jesus fed the poor he didn't ask about their sexual orientation first.

No. But He did tell his followers not to partake in sin, nor to use their position to enable others in it. He also defined marriage as between a man and a woman, and, as near as I can tell, never advocated using the coercive power of government to force anyone to do anything ever.



What do you do for a living, Alpaca?
 
Re: Is it wise for Christians to link the survival of Christianity to gay discriminat

You are conflating two non-identical things. Selling pizza slices to anyone who walks through the door =/= catering a gay wedding. One of these (as the post you were responding to delineated) is taking part in a ceremony that violates your faith.

If I sell pizza then why would it matter if were ordered by/delivered to "sinners"? What is the biblical/religious basis for this objection? I have yet to see where Jesus said not to sell/serve food to homosexuals or any other "sinners".

EDIT: It makes little sense to say that only during a wedding ceremony it is a sin to sell/serve pizza to homosexuals. The obvious next step is to deny services to any (carefully selected?) "sinner" at any time. Are these folks saying that before and after the wedding that they would knowingly serve these homosexual customers?
 
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Re: Is it wise for Christians to link the survival of Christianity to gay discriminat

If I sell pizza then why would it matter if were ordered by/delivered to "sinners"?

You are conflating dissimilar things. We aren't talking about A Gay Guy Walks Up To The Counter And Orders A Deep Dish With Extra Cheese And Bacon, we are talking about supporting wedding ceremonies. It's not the identity, but rather the activity, that is being refused.


But using the coercive power of the state to force people to violate their religion (or punish them for not doing so) is an interesting "libertarian" position for you to take. What other portions of the Bill of Rights do you think the State should restrict if others find a potential exercise of them to be "mean"?


What is the biblical/religious basis for this objection? I have yet to see where Jesus said not to sell/serve food to homosexuals or any other "sinners".

Do you mean what is the religious basis for objecting to homosexuality? Or to taking part in / supporting their weddings?
 
Re: Is it wise for Christians to link the survival of Christianity to gay discriminat

Many Christians, certainly on the conservative side, are linking the survival of Christianity to their ability to discriminate against gays. They need to discriminate against gays in order to be true Christians.



Aside from a few almost universally condemned extremists (cough*Westboro*cough), this is not a true statement.

Conservative Christians are concerned that the current trends will lead to laws or policies that will try to prevent churches from teaching that homosexual behavior is a sin in the Bible, forcing them to choose between breaking the law and teaching what is widely considered a Biblical truth. This is considered a rather serious matter, because Christians are strongly commanded to stand up for the truth as presented by the Bible. Some consider compromising in this regard to be equivalent to a betrayal of one's faith in God.


Now at present no one is telling Christian pastors that they cannot preach homosexuality as sin from the bible... at least, in America. There are other countries where it can get you in trouble, which leads many to be concerned about slippery slope issues. (Slippery slope isn't a fallacy when the slope is greased and someone is pushing, lol.)



Ok. Now, at least, the issue has been properly framed.
 
Re: Is it wise for Christians to link the survival of Christianity to gay discriminat

You are conflating dissimilar things. We aren't talking about A Gay Guy Walks Up To The Counter And Orders A Deep Dish With Extra Cheese And Bacon, we are talking about supporting wedding ceremonies. It's not the identity, but rather the activity, that is being refused.

So, if two straight people were getting a civil ceremony same sex marriage for tax purposes, that would be objectionable? On religious grounds???
 
Re: Is it wise for Christians to link the survival of Christianity to gay discriminat

No, many Christians openly oppose homosexuals and seek to sabotage their acceptance within society. They try to elect people who support an anti-gay agenda, so that life can be made miserable for them where possible.

well, if we're going to include voting habits, I guess both of our comments are wrong...
 
Re: Is it wise for Christians to link the survival of Christianity to gay discriminat

You are conflating dissimilar things. We aren't talking about A Gay Guy Walks Up To The Counter And Orders A Deep Dish With Extra Cheese And Bacon, we are talking about supporting wedding ceremonies. It's not the identity, but rather the activity, that is being refused.


But using the coercive power of the state to force people to violate their religion (or punish them for not doing so) is an interesting "libertarian" position for you to take. What other portions of the Bill of Rights do you think the State should restrict if others find a potential exercise of them to be "mean"?




Do you mean what is the religious basis for objecting to homosexuality? Or to taking part in / supporting their weddings?

If the objection was to homosexuality then it should not be limited to wedding day service. The idea that supplying goods/services to sinners is participating in a sin is quite a stretch.
 
Re: Is it wise for Christians to link the survival of Christianity to gay discriminat

If I sell pizza then why would it matter if were ordered by/delivered to "sinners"? What is the biblical/religious basis for this objection? I have yet to see where Jesus said not to sell/serve food to homosexuals or any other "sinners".

EDIT: It makes little sense to say that only during a wedding ceremony it is a sin to sell/serve pizza to homosexuals. The obvious next step is to deny services to any (carefully selected?) "sinner" at any time. Are these folks saying that before and after the wedding that they would knowingly serve these homosexual customers?


It has to do with having to actively participate in something one considers a sin, or actively help celebrate something the Bible teaches is a sin.

For instance, if I owned a restaurant, and some guy walks in and says 'Hey, I'm a married man having an affair, and I want to celebrate my adultery with a wild swingers party. I want your restaurant to cater the party."

I'd want the right to refuse to engage in an activity (catering his adultery party) celebrating a sinful activity (adultery).

Now granted, the above scenario is highly improbable. Let's re-frame that...

Say the rep for the Local Swingers 101 Club came by my restaurant, and said his group was having a big three-day event at a local hotel, featuring spouse-swapping and an orgy, and wanted my restaurant to cater and serve at the event.

Biblically, that's a sin... I'd want the right to refuse service on that basis. (Frankly, I'd want the right to refuse service anyway because it is icky and objectionable and I don't want me or my employees exposed to that kind of environment!)


Many conservative Christians would view being asked to cater/serve at a gay wedding in much the same light: being asked to help celebrate something sinful.


Getting the picture better now?
 
Re: Is it wise for Christians to link the survival of Christianity to gay discriminat

And it's not a violation of someone's rights to force them to participate in an activity which runs counter to the tenets of their faith? One way street much? :roll:

I don't think that you read what I said.
 
Re: Is it wise for Christians to link the survival of Christianity to gay discriminat

You are conflating dissimilar things. We aren't talking about A Gay Guy Walks Up To The Counter And Orders A Deep Dish With Extra Cheese And Bacon, we are talking about supporting wedding ceremonies. It's not the identity, but rather the activity, that is being refused.


But using the coercive power of the state to force people to violate their religion (or punish them for not doing so) is an interesting "libertarian" position for you to take. What other portions of the Bill of Rights do you think the State should restrict if others find a potential exercise of them to be "mean"?




Do you mean what is the religious basis for objecting to homosexuality? Or to taking part in / supporting their weddings?


Forgive me...but that is really a rather silly response. What difference does it make it the guy walks into the shop or asks to have them delivered? They aren't being asked to participate in the ceremony. Does it matter if he says "I need 50 pizzas" and doesn't say what they are for? If he says "I need 50 pizzas and I need them delivered to Happiness wedding hall? or if he says "I need 50 pizzas delivered to Happiness pizza hall for my gay wedding?

Jesus-facepalm.jpg
 
Re: Is it wise for Christians to link the survival of Christianity to gay discriminat

"Participating" in activities that "violate one's religion" is so subjective and "justifiable". For instance. I grew up in Utah. As everyone knows Utah is full of Mormons. Mormons preach staunchly about "keeping the Sabbath day holy". As a result, church owned businesses are closed on Sundays (or are they). The church owns a mall downtown and all of those business, whether Mormon or not, are required to be closed on Sundays.
Yet, the Mormon church runs the local NBC affiliate (KSL channel 5) which broadcasts all day on Sunday, including newscasts, the run a hotel across from the Mormon temple that is open on Sundays, requiring employees to work, they own a newspaper (Deseret News) which is published and delivered on Sundays. In other words.....they believe in "Keeping the Sabbath day holy" where it is convenient for them. Same with the pizza, bakery, florist bigots. They believe strongly in their religious tenents when it suits them, but can easily justify it when it doesn't.
 
Re: Is it wise for Christians to link the survival of Christianity to gay discriminat

I don't think that you read what I said.
Of course I did, don't be silly.
 
Re: Is it wise for Christians to link the survival of Christianity to gay discriminat

That is a complete distortion of Jesus based on his teachings. Christians who live in faithfulness would not run up against the world at all.

That's an interesting claim. Jesus said pretty much the exact opposite:

Jesus said:
(John 15:18-22) If the world hates you, you know that it has hated Me before it hated you. If you were of the world, the world would love its own; but because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, because of this the world hates you. Remember the word that I said to you, 'A slave is not greater than his master.' If they persecuted Me, they will also persecute you; if they kept My word, they will keep yours also. But all these things they will do to you for My name's sake, because they do not know the One who sent Me.

(John 7:7) The world cannot hate you [Jesus' brothers, who did not believe in Him], but it hates me because I testify that its works are evil.

(John 16:33) I have told you these things, so that in me you may have peace. In this world you will have trouble. But take heart! I have overcome the world.

(Mark 13:13 / Matthew 10:22) You will be hated by all because of My name, but the one who endures to the end, he will be saved.


In the rest of the NT, Jesus' teachings that faithful Christians can expect the World to turn on them is expounded on:

John 3:19-20 This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that their deeds will be exposed.

James 4:4 You adulterous people, don’t you know that friendship with the world means enmity against God? Therefore, anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God.

1 John 3:1, 13 See what great love the Father has lavished on us, that we should be called children of God! And that is what we are! The reason the world does not know us is that it did not know Him.... Do not be surprised, my brothers and sisters, if the world hates you.



Christians are, in fact, taught to be wary of, if not to outright reject, the Spirit of the World:

1 Cor 2:12 What we have received is not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may understand what God has freely given us.

Romans 12:2 Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will.

James 1:27Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world.

1 Jon 2:15-16 Do not love the world or anything in the world. If anyone loves the world, love for the Father is not in them. 16 For everything in the world—the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life—comes not from the Father but from the world.

1 John 4:5-6 They are from the world and therefore speak from the viewpoint of the world, and the world listens to them. We are from God, and whoever knows God listens to us; but whoever is not from God does not listen to us. This is how we recognize the Spirit of truth and the spirit of falsehood.



There are many, I would say the vast majority, of Christians who live fully his teachings and have no conflict.

:shrug: Jesus and the rest of the New Testament Authors would disagree.

Most Christians are good people who live his teachings...

Actually, as Christianity will be the first to tell you, all Christians are bad people. But, then, all people (with one exception) are bad people.

they are almost never the ones who proclaim themselves "Christian".

If they do not proclaim themselves to be Christians, then they are not Christians.

Romans 10:9-10 If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved.
 
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Re: Is it wise for Christians to link the survival of Christianity to gay discriminat

Nope. Christianity will survive when the pro-gay bullies have been judged immoral and cast into the Lake of Fire.

What I love today is the $266K raised so far for the Memories Pizza place.

Oh ****, you believe that fairy tale ****, lol.
 
Re: Is it wise for Christians to link the survival of Christianity to gay discriminat

That's an interesting claim. Jesus said pretty much the exact opposite:




In the rest of the NT, Jesus' teachings that faithful Christians can expect the World to turn on them is expounded on:

John 3:19-20This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that their deeds will be exposed.

James 4:4 You adulterous people, don’t you know that friendship with the world means enmity against God? Therefore, anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God.

1 John 3:1, 13 See what great love the Father has lavished on us, that we should be called children of God! And that is what we are! The reason the world does not know us is that it did not know Him.... Do not be surprised, my brothers and sisters, if the world hates you.



Christians are, in fact, taught to be wary of, if not to outright reject, the Spirit of the World:

1 Cor 2:12 What we have received is not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may understand what God has freely given us.

Romans 12:2 Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will.

James 1:27Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world.

1 Jon 2:15-16 Do not love the world or anything in the world. If anyone loves the world, love for the Father is not in them. 16 For everything in the world—the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life—comes not from the Father but from the world.

1 John 4:5-6 They are from the world and therefore speak from the viewpoint of the world, and the world listens to them. We are from God, and whoever knows God listens to us; but whoever is not from God does not listen to us. This is how we recognize the Spirit of truth and the spirit of falsehood.





:shrug: Jesus and the rest of the New Testament Authors would disagree.



Actually, as Christianity will be the first to tell you, all Christians are bad people. But, then, all people (with one exception) are bad people.



If they do not proclaim themselves to be Christians, then they are not Christians.

Romans 10:9-10 If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved.


Simple: Do unto others as ye would have them do unto you. Christ got the point. Most so called "Christians" miss it completely.
 
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