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Thread: Is it wise for Christians to link the survival of Christianity to gay discrimination?

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    Re: Is it wise for Christians to link the survival of Christianity to gay discriminat

    Quote Originally Posted by upsideguy View Post
    ...actually, divorce and re-marry is adultery. In that way, a divorcee is not dissimilar, Biblically speaking, from a gay person as having sex in a gay or divorced (even with re-marriage) relationship would be adultery (Mt 5: 31-32)
    Frankly both sides are not convincing to me. You have the ones claiming that "sins are all equal," usually trying to persuade us that it's not just a 'minor' sin, who spend their time condemning homosexuality above all, trying to pass "RFRA"s and **** to oppress and segregate themselves specifically from lgbt, not adulterers or the wealthy or gluttonous and so on.

    Then there are those who assert the sins are not equal. Well if that's the case, how is cheating on one's spouse the same as a consensual gay relationship? Why is there even this broad category of 'sin' ranging from harmless agreed upon behavior, to murder? Why isn't there a point system or something laid out so we know for sure which sins are worse? I don't have a lot of use for such a code of ethics

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    Re: Is it wise for Christians to link the survival of Christianity to gay discriminat

    Quote Originally Posted by chromium View Post
    Frankly both sides are not convincing to me. You have the ones claiming that "sins are all equal," usually trying to persuade us that it's not just a 'minor' sin, who spend their time condemning homosexuality above all, trying to pass "RFRA"s and **** to oppress and segregate themselves specifically from lgbt, not adulterers or the wealthy or gluttonous and so on.

    Then there are those who assert the sins are not equal. Well if that's the case, how is cheating on one's spouse the same as a consensual gay relationship? Why is there even this broad category of 'sin' ranging from harmless agreed upon behavior, to murder? Why isn't there a point system or something laid out so we know for sure which sins are worse? I don't have a lot of use for such a code of ethics
    I don't know that the Bible assigns levels of sinning. I think you either are sinning or not.
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    Re: Is it wise for Christians to link the survival of Christianity to gay discriminat

    Quote Originally Posted by disneydude View Post
    Simple: Do unto others as ye would have them do unto you. Christ got the point. Most so called "Christians" miss it completely.
    Regarding your second sentence, He also said to "Judge not."

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    Re: Is it wise for Christians to link the survival of Christianity to gay discriminat

    Quote Originally Posted by MildSteel View Post
    There is a difference in the way in which one is implicated if he is serving food at an event that is advocating sin, and if he serves food to people who are engaging in sin at an event that is not directly advocating sin. But but in both cases one is most certainly implicated. The thing is this, if you are serving God you are serving God. If you are serving sinners, you are serving sin.
    That is incorrect. Jesus, for example, served Sinners. Everyone serves sinners for we all are sinners. Jesus also walked into the temple and started flipping tables and hitting people with whatever came to hand - because they were not simply sinning, but shifting the purpose of their activity from something Holy to something selfish. Jesus also expected us to serve each other, loving our neighbors as ourselves regardless of their sin.

    One can serve food to people who are advocating sin and engaging in sin, IF AND ONLY IF one is purely motivated to please God by doing it.
    one should definitely seek to give Glory to God in ones' profession, that is indeed made clear:

    Colossians 3:17, 23-24 And whatever you do, in word or deed, do everything in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through him.... Whatever your task, work heartily, as serving the Lord and not men, knowing that from the Lord you will receive the inheritance as your reward; you are serving the Lord Christ.


    There is no way around it. The bottom line is that it depends on the motivation. One can serve food to people who are advocating sin and engaging in sin, IF AND ONLY IF one is purely motivated to please God by doing it. There cannot be the slightest tinge of self aggrandizement.
    Ah, no. You are mistaking intention for perfection.

    This is because God can see and understand everything, and for a person whose motive is purely to please God, there is no question of being affected by sin, because God is with such a person. Therefore Jesus said the following
    Yes, and Jesus was the only Perfect Man. For the rest of us, our imperfect faith is made perfect in Him.

    Jesus would not feed people an event with the motive to make some money so he could enjoy mundane objects, so people could look up to him because of his material possessions, because he wife was nagging him to buy her a fur coat, so that he could afford the company of a beautiful young woman, so that he could buy off a politician, so that he could buy weapons to kill his enemies, so that he could enjoy a vacation, or to stop the bill collectors from harassing him. If he would do such a thing, his motivation for doing so would be merely to glorify God, not for any sort of enjoyment or credit for himself. This is due to Jesus understanding perfectly that everything rests on God's energy, and as such everything is meant for the glorification of God.
    sure. But that is not to say that God does not intend that we profit by our businesses. A nagging wife indicates problems that money won't fix, prostitution and corruption are pretty non-biblical, but there is nothing wrong with enjoying a vacation and certainly nothing wrong with working hard so that you may be faithful in paying off the debts you owe. Quite the contrary.

    In a trade-based economy, you profit mostly to the extent that you serve others (by either providing them with goods or services), which is what God would have us do with our lives. I have always found it intriguing that the economic model that also produces the greatest wealth for humanity is one which bends our actions (regardless of our motivations) to His will in that way.

    Mundane people become implicated in sin due to their motivation to glorify and please themselves. Jesus is not implicated in sin because his motivation is always to please God. If one has the slightest motive for self aggrandizement, he is most certainly implicated in sin when he engages in sinful activity or facilitates in any small way sinful activity. This is why Jesus said it is not what goes in that implicates a person in sin, it is actually what is in the person heart, i.e. the motivation that implicates him.
    .....Jesus said that what comes out of the mouth come from the heart, and are what defile a man rather than what goes into it (Matt 15:18), and that if you commit lust you have committed adultery in your heart (Matt 5:28), but I don't think I have ever read where He said that sin is restricted to your heart, rather than including your deeds.

    However, by the standard you are raising up, it would indeed be wrong for Christian bakers/caterers/photogaphers/etc. to serve a gay wedding - because at that point in their heart they would be choosing to follow the World's commands vice what they believe to be Gods.
    “In America we have a two-party system,” a Republican congressional staffer told a visiting group of Russian legislators. “There is the stupid party. And there is the evil party. I am proud to be a member of the stupid party. Periodically, the two parties get together and do something that is both stupid and evil. This is called: bipartisanship."

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    Re: Is it wise for Christians to link the survival of Christianity to gay discriminat

    Quote Originally Posted by chromium View Post
    Frankly both sides are not convincing to me. You have the ones claiming that "sins are all equal," usually trying to persuade us that it's not just a 'minor' sin, who spend their time condemning homosexuality above all, trying to pass "RFRA"s and **** to oppress and segregate themselves specifically from lgbt, not adulterers or the wealthy or gluttonous and so on.

    Then there are those who assert the sins are not equal. Well if that's the case, how is cheating on one's spouse the same as a consensual gay relationship? Why is there even this broad category of 'sin' ranging from harmless agreed upon behavior, to murder? Why isn't there a point system or something laid out so we know for sure which sins are worse? I don't have a lot of use for such a code of ethics
    It is a dispute within Christianity between (generally) Protestants and Catholics. Catholics (doctrinally) believe that some sins are worse than others, and Protestants (generally) do not.
    “In America we have a two-party system,” a Republican congressional staffer told a visiting group of Russian legislators. “There is the stupid party. And there is the evil party. I am proud to be a member of the stupid party. Periodically, the two parties get together and do something that is both stupid and evil. This is called: bipartisanship."

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    Re: Is it wise for Christians to link the survival of Christianity to gay discriminat

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    That is incorrect. Jesus, for example, served Sinners. Everyone serves sinners for we all are sinners. Jesus also walked into the temple and started flipping tables and hitting people with whatever came to hand - because they were not simply sinning, but shifting the purpose of their activity from something Holy to something selfish. Jesus also expected us to serve each other, loving our neighbors as ourselves regardless of their sin.
    Actually it is correct. But it may be that you don't understand the statement. If you are serving a sinner, then you must be doing it for the glorification of God, otherwise you are serving sin.

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    one should definitely seek to give Glory to God in ones' profession, that is indeed made clear:

    Colossians 3:17, 23-24 And whatever you do, in word or deed, do everything in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through him.... Whatever your task, work heartily, as serving the Lord and not men, knowing that from the Lord you will receive the inheritance as your reward; you are serving the Lord Christ.
    That is the point. Good verse.

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    Ah, no. You are mistaking intention for perfection.
    Actually no I am not. God is perfect, and God can understand what our intent actually is. It is not the superficial intent we may manufacture in our minds. For someone whose intent is pure, God will definitely be there and will give that person directions on how to act at every moment. And as a result, that person will constantly be engaged in doing the will and glorification of God. Of this, there is no doubt. Therefore it does indeed hinge on the hinge on the motivation, but it is the deep motivation, that God can perfectly see.

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    sure. But that is not to say that God does not intend that we profit by our businesses. A nagging wife indicates problems that money won't fix, prostitution and corruption are pretty non-biblical, but there is nothing wrong with enjoying a vacation and certainly nothing wrong with working hard so that you may be faithful in paying off the debts you owe. Quite the contrary.

    In a trade-based economy, you profit mostly to the extent that you serve others (by either providing them with goods or services), which is what God would have us do with our lives. I have always found it intriguing that the economic model that also produces the greatest wealth for humanity is one which bends our actions (regardless of our motivations) to His will in that way.
    Like I said it depends on the real motivation. Paying off debt or satisfying a wife simply because you won't be in anxiety without any motivation to glorify God are not spiritual motivations. Neither is taking a vacation without the motivation to serve and glorify God. One can take a vacation in such a spirit however. People do it all the time, and such a vacation is glorious.

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    .....Jesus said that what comes out of the mouth come from the heart, and are what defile a man rather than what goes into it (Matt 15:18), and that if you commit lust you have committed adultery in your heart (Matt 5:28), but I don't think I have ever read where He said that sin is restricted to your heart, rather than including your deeds.

    However, by the standard you are raising up, it would indeed be wrong for Christian bakers/caterers/photogaphers/etc. to serve a gay wedding - because at that point in their heart they would be choosing to follow the World's commands vice what they believe to be Gods.
    No that is not necessarily true. If they serve a gay wedding, but their motivation for doing so is to glorify and do God's will it is not wrong. It has to be done in the spirit of the wonderful verse that you quoted earlier though.

    The point is this, we are meant for the service and glorification of God. God has manifested and beautiful and wonderful creation to give us the opportunity to do such. We should use it for that purpose. If we don't we are misusing the property of God. This results in becoming implicated in sin.

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    Re: Is it wise for Christians to link the survival of Christianity to gay discriminat

    Quote Originally Posted by MildSteel View Post
    Actually it is correct. But it may be that you don't understand the statement. If you are serving a sinner, then you must be doing it for the glorification of God, otherwise you are serving sin.
    This is where I think you are going wrong in this:

    Actually no I am not. God is perfect, and God can understand what our intent actually is. It is not the superficial intent we may manufacture in our minds. For someone whose intent is pure, God will definitely be there and will give that person directions on how to act at every moment. And as a result, that person will constantly be engaged in doing the will and glorification of God. Of this, there is no doubt. Therefore it does indeed hinge on the hinge on the motivation, but it is the deep motivation, that God can perfectly see.
    No one has pure intent. All have fallen short.

    Like I said it depends on the real motivation. Paying off debt or satisfying a wife simply because you won't be in anxiety without any motivation to glorify God are not spiritual motivations.
    Serving your wife and letting your yes be yes and your no be no are absolutely ways in which you can faithfully serve God. I agree they do not have to be, or are inherently.

    No that is not necessarily true. If they serve a gay wedding, but their motivation for doing so is to glorify and do God's will it is not wrong.
    I find it extremely difficult to picture how that would work. It seems to me that it would either require a rejection of Gods' teachings about sexuality (the decision that homosexual unions are marriage as God intended and that homosexual acts are not sinful), a rejection of Gods' teachings about judgment and violence (the decision to take advantage of trust placed in you by a homosexual couple to attack the wedding in some way, thinking you were attacking sin), or a rejection of Gods' teachings about honesty (the decision that because you are required to serve the wedding, you will do so, but you choose to provide the worst service you can in protest).

    Intent does not make a sinful action less sinful, any more than centuries of abusive slavery are inherently good because people could convince themselves of it. That's relativism.

    Now - if we were trying to seek salvation through works, that would be extremely upsetting. It would suggest that there are things we accept and do today that are, in fact, abusive in ways that our culture or personal desires partly blind us to, as many of our ancestors (and many did not) accepted slavery or pogroms, or whatnot. It would bear us down with an almost impossible burden - how to avoid sinning in the ways in which you do not even realize you are doing so? Hence the attraction among those who wish to think of themselves as "good people" to relativism. If it's all my intent, or if I am "generally a good person", then I ought to be good, right? Avoidance of an Ultimate Standard against which I might be found deficient can be "achieved" (but not really) by denying it's existence and substituting for it my own personal beliefs and preferences.

    But then I am not worshiping or following God, am I? I am worshiping/following The Big Cpwill In The Sky.

    Thanks be to God who provided a way out of that conundrum for us .

    The point is this, we are meant for the service and glorification of God. God has manifested and beautiful and wonderful creation to give us the opportunity to do such. We should use it for that purpose. If we don't we are misusing the property of God. This results in becoming implicated in sin.
    All very true. But because of that, I cannot use the property or gifts He has given me to celebrate that which He condemns, or I am mis-using the gifts.
    Last edited by cpwill; 04-06-15 at 09:20 AM.
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    Re: Is it wise for Christians to link the survival of Christianity to gay discriminat

    Quote Originally Posted by joko104 View Post
    Why are ALL rants on the forum against religions in relation to SSM ONLY against Christians and NEVER against Muslims?

    Cheering a deal with Muslim theocratic Iran boasting of banning all homosexuals - while at the same time spitting on Catholics and Baptists? This is how detached from reality most Americans have become. They are just doing what American media does regardless of how hypocritical.
    Because that is not here. They perpetrate terrible human rights violations of women there too....are you standing up for them, in Iran? Or Saudi Arabia?

    And you only have to look at many of the posts here...the repressive, depressing, even miserable interpretations of God's Message to see why people in America are moving away from religion. I was brought up in a Christian church where God's Love was preached....the focus was on good things and people trying to be better 'themselves,' not judging and wishing to force others to do so. God gave us free will and He will be the Judge. The Bible was written for the people of the time by people of the time....it could not have been written for some future society when God knew our free will would take us in many directions.

    And ya know, I bet the people in my church (and lots of others that were the same) have no more or less sinners than any other denomination. And they are certainly no better...or worse...than the people of my parishes over the course of my life. There is no moral High Ground in those repressive, depressing, sin-focused views. As a matter of fact, they seem pretty self-centered. (I'm struggling with my sin MORE than YOU are!)
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    Re: Is it wise for Christians to link the survival of Christianity to gay discriminat

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    This is where I think you are going wrong in this:

    No one has pure intent. All have fallen short.
    Although all have fallen short, by following the instructions of Jesus, one can please God. And when God is pleased, he will cleanse a person's heart from the effects of sin which results gradually in intent becoming pure. The more one's intent becomes pure, the more he naturally wants to do those things which please God. And the more one wants to do those things that please God, it becomes manifest in his behavior in what is called the fruit of the Spirit.

    But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

    Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    I find it extremely difficult to picture how that would work. It seems to me that it would either require a rejection of Gods' teachings about sexuality (the decision that homosexual unions are marriage as God intended and that homosexual acts are not sinful), a rejection of Gods' teachings about judgment and violence (the decision to take advantage of trust placed in you by a homosexual couple to attack the wedding in some way, thinking you were attacking sin), or a rejection of Gods' teachings about honesty (the decision that because you are required to serve the wedding, you will do so, but you choose to provide the worst service you can in protest).
    It is possible, although it might not be easy. But then nothing of this nature is easy in this world. Remember Jesus said the following

    6 Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves.

    17 But beware of men: for they will deliver you up to the councils, and they will scourge you in their synagogues;

    18 And ye shall be brought before governors and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them and the Gentiles.

    19 But when they deliver you up, take no thought how or what ye shall speak: for it shall be given you in that same hour what ye shall speak.

    20 For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you.

    21 And the brother shall deliver up the brother to death, and the father the child: and the children shall rise up against their parents, and cause them to be put to death.

    22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.
    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    Intent does not make a sinful action less sinful, any more than centuries of abusive slavery are inherently good because people could convince themselves of it. That's relativism.
    I am not talking about the superficial intent that we rationalize in our minds. I am talking that the actual intent that God sees. God can see perfectly and is not subjected to the illusions that we may be afflicted by. God can understand intent and he most certainly will protect those whose sole motive is to glorify him from the effects of sin. Therefore Jesus taught us to ask God to deliver us from the effects of evil.

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    Now - if we were trying to seek salvation through works, that would be extremely upsetting. It would suggest that there are things we accept and do today that are, in fact, abusive in ways that our culture or personal desires partly blind us to, as many of our ancestors (and many did not) accepted slavery or pogroms, or whatnot. It would bear us down with an almost impossible burden - how to avoid sinning in the ways in which you do not even realize you are doing so?
    Although it was a different set of difficulties, Jesus replied the following when his disciples were shocked about the apparent difficulty of the task of becoming free from the effects of mundane conditioning.

    25 When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved?

    26 But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.
    God is in your heart and he can understand. When you really want to please him, he will give you the understanding how to do it, of this there is not doubt at all.
    Last edited by MildSteel; 04-06-15 at 09:57 PM.

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    Re: Is it wise for Christians to link the survival of Christianity to gay discriminat

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    Hence the attraction among those who wish to think of themselves as "good people" to relativism. If it's all my intent, or if I am "generally a good person", then I ought to be good, right? Avoidance of an Ultimate Standard against which I might be found deficient can be "achieved" (but not really) by denying it's existence and substituting for it my own personal beliefs and preferences.
    Yeah and that is what we have a tendency to do, especially in the beginning. But as we continuously strive to follow the instructions of Jesus such as those given in his famous Sermon on the Mount (WOW!! What a sermon), without giving up, we gradually grow in spiritual understanding. Jesus compared spiritual advancement to being like a mustard seed which starts out small, but gradually grows into a luxurious plant. Gradually, God purifies us such that our intent becomes pure in truth. And then the wonderful fruits of the Spirit start to manifest themselves in our activity.

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    Thanks be to God who provided a way out of that conundrum for us .
    Indeed. Without Jesus, we would be stuck with no way out. But by the Divine Grace of Jesus, we can indeed achieve the mercy of God.

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