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Thread: Is it wise for Christians to link the survival of Christianity to gay discrimination?

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    Re: Is it wise for Christians to link the survival of Christianity to gay discriminat

    Why are ALL rants on the forum against religions in relation to SSM ONLY against Christians and NEVER against Muslims?

    Cheering a deal with Muslim theocratic Iran boasting of banning all homosexuals - while at the same time spitting on Catholics and Baptists? This is how detached from reality most Americans have become. They are just doing what American media does regardless of how hypocritical.

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    Re: Is it wise for Christians to link the survival of Christianity to gay discriminat

    Quote Originally Posted by joko104 View Post
    It could be argued the exact opposite - that church participation is declining because churches are dropping their standards. If a Christian Church won't stick to Christian doctrine, what's the point?

    As for church participation and membership, it is the mainstream churches that have very soft, nice social sermons avoiding topics of sin that are declining. The churches that are booming are the fundamentalist and moralistic independent denominations. Because they tend to be independent counting their numbers is all but impossible as there is no federal registry of church participants. However those are the churches that thousands attend and tens to hundreds of thousands religiously watch on TV and contribute to.
    i doubt it since it's participation among the young that's hemorrhaging. The young simply have different values than the church and their elders and it's only going to get worse (from religion's pov). Look at scandinavia to see what's in store for the church in 20 years. My swedish friend says the only churches left basically are abandoned

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    Re: Is it wise for Christians to link the survival of Christianity to gay discriminat

    Quote Originally Posted by joko104 View Post
    Why are ALL rants on the forum against religions in relation to SSM ONLY against Christians and NEVER against Muslims?

    Cheering a deal with Muslim theocratic Iran boasting of banning all homosexuals - while at the same time spitting on Catholics and Baptists? This is how detached from reality most Americans have become. They are just doing what American media does regardless of how hypocritical.
    You are mistaken. I do not at all approve of having Saudi as our 'ally,' for how they treat women, gays, and yes, religious minorities. But i have a lot more influence over the oppression sought by christians in this country than i do saudi arabia or iran

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    Re: Is it wise for Christians to link the survival of Christianity to gay discriminat

    Quote Originally Posted by joko104 View Post
    Biblical doctrine does not prohibit a gay couple being a couple. Nor do many Christian denominations. The only prohibition they have is against homosexual sex. The latest position of most anti-SSM Christian denominations is that being gay isn't sinful, but homosexual sex is. It is, specifically, the sexual act itself that is the sin.
    Yes? An adulterer has their spouse at least to satisfy themselves, or they can divorce and remarry, like one of my uncles has done 3x. The options for homosexuals is nothing by comparison and since like 98-99% of them are not lifelong celibate, this a pretty worthless distinction you're making. A gay couple is not going to be celibate, unless they're in the nursing home

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    Re: Is it wise for Christians to link the survival of Christianity to gay discriminat

    Quote Originally Posted by chromium View Post
    i doubt it since it's participation among the young that's hemorrhaging. The young simply have different values than the church and their elders and it's only going to get worse (from religion's pov). Look at scandinavia to see what's in store for the church in 20 years. My swedish friend says the only churches left basically are abandoned
    You aren't claiming the churches in Sweden are more anti-gay than in the USA are you - and THAT is why churches are basically abandoned? Christianity in Europe mostly died away LONG before gay rights came along.

    What has changes is that the media and virtually all social presentations are either devoid of religion or portray religious people as crazy, stupid and often psychotic murderers. Sitcoms have defined that a mere first kiss will end up with the couple in bed as do movies, and sound laugh tracks played often in such situations. There is essentially no longer any media or social support of religion or its principles - rather nearly only condemnations, ridicule, hate and fear of religious people.

    I do not believe declining church attendance has one iota to do with gay rights or SSM. If it did, metaphysical churches, Unitarian Churches and other churches that do not oppose SSM would have full pews, rather than the most empty of all. The Anglican church not only supports SSM, but has openly gay ministers and even bishops. Are their pews filling up? No.

    But check out some of the tele-evangelists who curse homosexuality - and the thousands that attend their churches.

    What is dying is mainstream middle of the road traditional denominations. But, then, what do that offer? An upbeat sermon that has a nice platitude and a potluck lunch once a month after services? What do they even stand for anymore? Be happy and be nice? If nothing else they are incredibly boring services of bad music, shallow sermons and avoiding religious controversial issues. Why go? So people don't.

    If pro-gay marriage denominations were growing over those that aren't, you'd have a point. But it is the fundamentalists and social rightwing independent churches that are have the huge numbers.

    What I see happening is the non-devoted Christians are just dropping out - so increasingly a person is going to be either non-religious/anti-religion OR militantly high devoted. It is the passive middle that is fading away. The majority? Definitely will be non-religious. But those highly devoted and highly spiritual will continue to be so. Everything isn't determined by what young people do. Most young people are liberal. Many of them become conservative down the road.

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    Re: Is it wise for Christians to link the survival of Christianity to gay discriminat

    Quote Originally Posted by chromium View Post
    You are mistaken. I do not at all approve of having Saudi as our 'ally,' for how they treat women, gays, and yes, religious minorities. But i have a lot more influence over the oppression sought by christians in this country than i do saudi arabia or iran
    Do you REALLY believe you have ANY influence by what you post on this forum? Seriously you think that?

    Of the various reasons to post can be included speaking your mind just to do so. But changing anything???

    Of the many effects of the Internet, one of those has to be to eliminate most social and political activism. Don't like a war? Don't protest. Don't get out and go door to door in a political effort or campaign. Just bitch on the Internet about it, which accomplishes absolutely nothing.

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    Re: Is it wise for Christians to link the survival of Christianity to gay discriminat

    Quote Originally Posted by joko104 View Post
    You aren't claiming the churches in Sweden are more anti-gay than in the USA are you - and THAT is why churches are basically abandoned? Christianity in Europe mostly died away LONG before gay rights came along.
    Gay rights in europe, certainly sweden, took off LONG before it did in america. It's not that europeans in the 1960s didn't want to cling to religion, as their grandparents had; it's that religion did not adapt. Not surprising from an institution that relies completely on an ancient book. Other institutions used to segregate the races and so on but see, they adapt.

    I'm talking about a host of issues, from birth control to atheism to recreational drug use to remarriages to gay rights. Church is also boring as **** (texting is frowned upon)

    Quote Originally Posted by joko104 View Post
    If pro-gay marriage denominations were growing over those that aren't, you'd have a point.
    This bring me to my 2nd point, which is that religion *cannot* plausibly adapt. It's not just that it refuses to. Do you think someone who is gay and has been dragged to church since age 4-5 won't agonize over it to find another church? But i don't see much in any holy text that is gay friendly. Some can create a dissonance whereby religion is compatible with gay rights or birth control. Most will concede that they are not compatible, or they've been directly harmed by religion or seen their friends harmed, families torn apart, and they drop religion altogether.

    I see unitarian church and so on as more of a place for those who can't let go

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    Re: Is it wise for Christians to link the survival of Christianity to gay discriminat

    Quote Originally Posted by joko104 View Post
    Why are ALL rants on the forum against religions in relation to SSM ONLY against Christians and NEVER against Muslims?

    Cheering a deal with Muslim theocratic Iran boasting of banning all homosexuals - while at the same time spitting on Catholics and Baptists? This is how detached from reality most Americans have become. They are just doing what American media does regardless of how hypocritical.
    Well we could just lump both the Muslims and Christians together and say Muslo-Christian. Is that what you desire? I don't think so.

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    Re: Is it wise for Christians to link the survival of Christianity to gay discriminat

    Quote Originally Posted by Amadeus View Post
    Edit: Why aren't polls auto-selected on this forum so that people don't accidentally post threads without polls?
    Because most threads aren't polls.

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    Re: Is it wise for Christians to link the survival of Christianity to gay discriminat

    Quote Originally Posted by Amadeus View Post
    Many Christians, certainly on the conservative side, are linking the survival of Christianity to their ability to discriminate against gays. They need to discriminate against gays in order to be true Christians.
    No they're not.
    "He who does not think himself worth saving from poverty and ignorance by his own efforts, will hardly be thought worth the efforts of anybody else." -- Frederick Douglass, Self-Made Men (1872)
    "Fly-over" country spoke, and The Donald is now POTUS.

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