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Thread: Is it wise for Christians to link the survival of Christianity to gay discrimination?

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    Re: Is it wise for Christians to link the survival of Christianity to gay discriminat

    Quote Originally Posted by JANFU View Post
    Then riddle me these points.
    God created man in his image. Yes-
    Why would God create untold millions to suffer?
    No love, no family, no rights, just pure suffering from being hanged to beat to death, to dragged behind a truck till they died.
    Did God create them to suffer? If so why?
    Being gay is not a chosen lifestyle, you are or you are not.
    You cannot be converted from gay to heterosexual. No you cannot.

    I like other Christians also believe in evolution. Do you?
    Three things:

    1. There's no evidence God created gayness in individuals. Along with the fall of man in the Garden of Eden, decay and sin entered the human race. Genetic / hormonal abnormalities, such as some theorize occur during pregnancy in the womb, influence homosexuality.

    Homosexuality Might Develop in the Womb Due to Epigenetic Changes - SciTech Daily

    2. Regarding evil in creation. Assume you're God. How would you create man with free will and at the same time not allow him to do evil?

    How would you do that, JANFU?

    3. I believe God created life and after that micro-evolution, etc., occurred. As far as modern man, there's zero conclusive DNA evidence identifying any known hominid as man's immediate direct line ancestor.
    "Progressives aren't really progressive. They're regressive, all the way back to Sodom and Gomorrah." - author unknown

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    Re: Is it wise for Christians to link the survival of Christianity to gay discriminat

    Quote Originally Posted by Amadeus View Post
    It's not. 99% of homosexuals just want to be left alone without being discriminated against.
    I think maybe more than 1% of gay people are activists or join in activist activities or support or applaud the activists. But consider two scenarios:

    The Westboro Baptist Church, under a banner of religious freedom, harasses and interrupts funerals and weddings of gay people. Just about everybody outside that particular group whether Christian, Atheist, or any other label deplores that activity and unequivocably condemns the Westboro Baptists for engaging in that kind of activity.

    So gay activists harass and interrupt the business of and demand retaliation against a Christian who speaks out in favor of traditional marriage or who chooses not to participate in a gay marriage ceremony.

    And that's okay? The same people who condemn the Westboro Baptists will often applaud the persecution of the Christian who wants nothing more than just to be able to be who and what he is in peace just as most gay people want that. In my sense of justice I see both being equally unjustified and reprehensible in trying to force somebody else to stop being who and what they are.

    Most gay people want to be gay without being harassed for it or being discriminated against for it. They do not wish to have to accept or embrace values that they in good conscience cannot accept or participate in. That doesn't mean they are denying anybody else the right to accept or embrace different values.

    Most Christian people want to be Christian without being harassed for it or being discriminated against for it. They do not wish to have to accept or embrace values they in good conscience cannot accept or participate in. That doesn't mean they are denying anybody else the right to accept or embrace different values.
    "I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it." --Benjamin Franklin 1776

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    Re: Is it wise for Christians to link the survival of Christianity to gay discriminat

    Quote Originally Posted by JANFU View Post
    Do you believe the Bible is the literal word of God?
    No errors, completely accurate word of God?
    Do you really feel the need to attack the Bible to justify homosexual sin?

    But to answer the question, the Bible we have today has various transcription errors, or rearrangement of words, or dots and tittle issues, but nothing major to the point that the fundamental truths of the Bible have been compromised. We know this because we have the ancient Dead Sea Scrolls (like the 'Great Isaiah Scroll' dated to about 150 BC) and other manuscript evidence that gives us good confidence of the divine inspiration of the scriptures.

    For instance, ALL FOUR GOSPELS and various epistles verify the resurrection of Christ. That's preponderance of the evidence.
    Last edited by Logicman; 04-04-15 at 03:39 PM.
    "Progressives aren't really progressive. They're regressive, all the way back to Sodom and Gomorrah." - author unknown

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    Re: Is it wise for Christians to link the survival of Christianity to gay discriminat

    Quote Originally Posted by AlbqOwl View Post
    I've been watching and listening to and reading Huckabee for a number of years now, and I am pretty sure he doesn't link the survival of Christianity to gay discrimination. I am quite certain he himself does not discriminate against gays in any way.

    But he is passionately angry and outspoken about gay activists and others dictating to the rest of us how we are supposed to think, how we are supposed to believe, how we are supposed to conduct our businesses, and demanding that we deep six our own convictions and feelings and moral center and embrace theirs. And he does see Christians as being specifically targeted to be disciplined when they don't toe the line on that mandate.

    And frankly, while I don't share all his views on how gay people are to be regarded--he sees homosexuality as a choice for instance and I do not--I don't think he is being unreasonable or melodramatic about the current assault on our individual liberties.
    I do, I think that would be spot on actually. I think its completely unreasonable, disingenuous and complete melodramatic to think that stuff is really going on. IMO it's nothing but a dishonest fear tactic and ONLY because it's a NEW civil rights front of this current generation or time do some people buy in to it. Are there asshole fanatics out there that do want some for the stuff you mentioned? I'm sure there is but they don't represent the majority in anyway nor is any of that really part of the fight for civil and equal rights. I know it this is just anecdotal but there's nothing that goes on in my life, I see happening around me makes me feel attacked for my religion or that my religion is under attack. I view it as a farce by those that are simply used to us already (unspokenly) getting the special treatment or being the majority and they are upset its going away. Well thats just too bad but that doesn't mean its under attack. It's the same things people went thought when minorities and women gain more equal footing in rights. There was claims it was special or an assault but the reality is it was just becoming more equal.

    Also my apologizes if I misunderstood context because I do admit I just jumped in this thread.
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    Re: Is it wise for Christians to link the survival of Christianity to gay discriminat

    Lol, I love when people say things like "special treatment of being a majority" when talking about basic human rights like being able to control who you sell your property to. Classic idiocy.

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    Re: Is it wise for Christians to link the survival of Christianity to gay discriminat

    Quote Originally Posted by AlbqOwl View Post
    I think maybe more than 1% of gay people are activists or join in activist activities or support or applaud the activists. But consider two scenarios:

    The Westboro Baptist Church, under a banner of religious freedom, harasses and interrupts funerals and weddings of gay people. Just about everybody outside that particular group whether Christian, Atheist, or any other label deplores that activity and unequivocably condemns the Westboro Baptists for engaging in that kind of activity.

    So gay activists harass and interrupt the business of and demand retaliation against a Christian who speaks out in favor of traditional marriage or who chooses not to participate in a gay marriage ceremony.

    And that's okay? The same people who condemn the Westboro Baptists will often applaud the persecution of the Christian who wants nothing more than just to be able to be who and what he is in peace just as most gay people want that. In my sense of justice I see both being equally unjustified and reprehensible in trying to force somebody else to stop being who and what they are.

    Most gay people want to be gay without being harassed for it or being discriminated against for it. They do not wish to have to accept or embrace values that they in good conscience cannot accept or participate in. That doesn't mean they are denying anybody else the right to accept or embrace different values.

    Most Christian people want to be Christian without being harassed for it or being discriminated against for it. They do not wish to have to accept or embrace values they in good conscience cannot accept or participate in. That doesn't mean they are denying anybody else the right to accept or embrace different values.
    While I understand what you are trying to say comparing westboro to gay people fighting for equal rights or against discrimination is not the same. That 's complete crap. As a straight women comparing the them and saying they are equally unjustified and reprehensible is highly offensive and ignorant IMO.

    A group of people standing outside a funeral of a dead solder who was gay yelling at the parents/family/friends that their son went to hell cause he is a faggot and god hates fags when he that person died for our freedoms is NOTHING like a person pressing charges, suing or filing a complaint for a others breaking laws and infringing on their rights. One group (Westboro) is practicing their first amendment rights, which I support I just think their message is despicable and an excellent way to get yourself punched in the face. The second group (gay citizens) had a crime committed against them and or their rights violated and took action after that. Those are not the same. Now if people are out their trying to catch people discriminating then I would agree that is a bit of a dick move but if people weren't breaking laws then there would be nothing to catch.

    Christians like myself are greatly free to be Christian and not be discriminated against, that doesn't mean break laws and infringing on others rights.
    "We are never done with lessons, not while we live"

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    Re: Is it wise for Christians to link the survival of Christianity to gay discriminat

    This isn’t a debate about Religious Freedom Restoration Acts. This is a debate about whether Americans should remain free to live in accordance with their truth about marriage in their public lives. This is a debate about whether or not the government should be able to coerce people into violating their belief that marriage is the union of a man and a woman. And the left side of the aisle wants to give people like myself two options.
    1. Deny my conscience
    or
    2. go to jail

    Throughout the land, mom and pop businesses pertaining to the wedding industry will continue to respectfully decline services for a gay wedding out of religious convictions. And we will continue to see these people dragged into court, fined, jailed and most likely lose their livelihoods. And a group among us will rejoice with glee. They see nothing wrong with government using coercion. It isn't just SSM people of faith are being attacked but it is on many fronts. I wonder how far off we are from having Christians be identified with yellow crosses sewn on their clothing and boxcars provided for their transportation.
    Last edited by vesper; 04-04-15 at 04:05 PM.

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    Re: Is it wise for Christians to link the survival of Christianity to gay discriminat

    Quote Originally Posted by LaylaWindu View Post
    I do, I think that would be spot on actually. I think its completely unreasonable, disingenuous and complete melodramatic to think that stuff is really going on. IMO it's nothing but a dishonest fear tactic and ONLY because it's a NEW civil rights front of this current generation or time do some people buy in to it. Are there asshole fanatics out there that do want some for the stuff you mentioned? I'm sure there is but they don't represent the majority in anyway nor is any of that really part of the fight for civil and equal rights. I know it this is just anecdotal but there's nothing that goes on in my life, I see happening around me makes me feel attacked for my religion or that my religion is under attack. I view it as a farce by those that are simply used to us already (unspokenly) getting the special treatment or being the majority and they are upset its going away. Well thats just too bad but that doesn't mean its under attack. It's the same things people went thought when minorities and women gain more equal footing in rights. There was claims it was special or an assault but the reality is it was just becoming more equal.

    Also my apologizes if I misunderstood context because I do admit I just jumped in this thread.
    Well there are definitely points of view which of course we discuss and debate in these message board forums.

    But I don't see any Christians, other than the Westboro Baptists whom I believe are decidedly unChristlike, who are bothering gay people anywhere about anything. There was the AFC who requested J C Penney drop Ellen DeGeneres from their advertising and they were soundly criticized by almost all the rest of us for doing so. I believe they backed off that and have not repeated the offense.

    And I see a lot of Christians being harassed, picketed, and their businesses attacked or destroyed, not because they were unkind to or did anything to a gay person, but simply because they exercised their convictions and/or said what they believe.

    I see a whole lot more tolerance in the Christian community than I see in the gay community. I don't see Christians demanding that gays change their beliefs or behavior or else they will be harassed and their advertisers threatened and/or their businesses picketed or sued. I see a lot of gay people demanding that Christians do that.

    So which is the more tolerant? Who is discriminating against who?
    "I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it." --Benjamin Franklin 1776

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    Re: Is it wise for Christians to link the survival of Christianity to gay discriminat

    Quote Originally Posted by AlbqOwl View Post
    Well there are definitely points of view which of course we discuss and debate in these message board forums.

    But I don't see any Christians, other than the Westboro Baptists whom I believe are decidedly unChristlike, who are bothering gay people anywhere about anything. There was the AFC who requested J C Penney drop Ellen DeGeneres from their advertising and they were soundly criticized by almost all the rest of us for doing so. I believe they backed off that and have not repeated the offense.
    I'd say you are blind in at lest one eye then. While I agree its not the majority of us because the majority of us support equal rights there are many Christians along with many other religions that are bothering gay people. Are you aware that gays are still fighting for their national right to marry? And many of the fights against the originated or were support by religious groups including Christians? Claiming there's no Christian doing anything to bother gays is just disingenuous. Its a flat out lie or ignorance.

    Quote Originally Posted by AlbqOwl View Post
    And I see a lot of Christians being harassed, picketed, and their businesses attacked or destroyed, not because they were unkind to or did anything to a gay person, but simply because they exercised their convictions and/or said what they believe.
    You mean in the majority of cases(not all) they broke law or they illegally discriminated . . oh the horror of that having consequences
    I seen a lot of rapist goes to jail for simply exercising their convictions and giving the woman what they believed she wanted too. Good grief Im sorry but sometimes i simply just can't stomach that disingenuous language, its like a woman beater saying they beat their woman cause they love them.

    Quote Originally Posted by AlbqOwl View Post
    I see a whole lot more tolerance in the Christian community than I see in the gay community. I don't see Christians demanding that gays change their beliefs or behavior or else they will be harassed and their advertisers threatened and/or their businesses picketed or sued. I see a lot of gay people demanding that Christians do that.
    well they aren't to be judged as communities because I certainly don't agree with all Christians or the bigots in "my community" just like I certainly don't agree with the loons in the gay community.
    When the actually clashes are happening its not the "so called" Christian that are being tolerant because on group is typically breaking the law and infringing on rights and on is fight for theirs. Very large difference. Gays in general are not demanding that I change my views or any other Christians, in fact they have no power to do so, nobody does. So no you do not see a lot of gays doing that in the way you wrote it. Remind me what laws have gays tried to make to limit me in my religion? or stop me from practicing? ZERO that i know of. Wish I could say nobody that claims to be Christina has none the same.
    Quote Originally Posted by AlbqOwl View Post
    So which is the more tolerant? Who is discriminating against who?
    That's easy, the people fighting for equal rights are easily more tolerant than those trying to oppress them. Gays are the ones being illegally discriminated against and if you have examples of ANYBODY being illegal discriminated against Id want that addressed just like any illegal discrimination.

    Like I said it's a made up fear tactic, it's crap. If gays were given 100% equal rights tomorrow including equal anti-discrimination footing Christians lose ZERO religions rights and freedoms. In fact none of us lose anything. My rights as a person, as a woman, as a Christian are under zero threat because the reality is they are all the same. We all have the same rights and should but currently gays do not.

    In fact that's a good topic.
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    Re: Is it wise for Christians to link the survival of Christianity to gay discriminat

    Quote Originally Posted by LaylaWindu View Post
    I'd say you are blind in at lest one eye then. While I agree its not the majority of us because the majority of us support equal rights there are many Christians along with many other religions that are bothering gay people. Are you aware that gays are still fighting for their national right to marry? And many of the fights against the originated or were support by religious groups including Christians? Claiming there's no Christian doing anything to bother gays is just disingenuous. Its a flat out lie or ignorance.


    You mean in the majority of cases(not all) they broke law or they illegally discriminated . . oh the horror of that having consequences
    I seen a lot of rapist goes to jail for simply exercising their convictions and giving the woman what they believed she wanted too. Good grief Im sorry but sometimes i simply just can't stomach that disingenuous language, its like a woman beater saying they beat their woman cause they love them.


    well they aren't to be judged as communities because I certainly don't agree with all Christians or the bigots in "my community" just like I certainly don't agree with the loons in the gay community.
    When the actually clashes are happening its not the "so called" Christian that are being tolerant because on group is typically breaking the law and infringing on rights and on is fight for theirs. Very large difference. Gays in general are not demanding that I change my views or any other Christians, in fact they have no power to do so, nobody does. So no you do not see a lot of gays doing that in the way you wrote it. Remind me what laws have gays tried to make to limit me in my religion? or stop me from practicing? ZERO that i know of. Wish I could say nobody that claims to be Christina has none the same.


    That's easy, the people fighting for equal rights are easily more tolerant than those trying to oppress them. Gays are the ones being illegally discriminated against and if you have examples of ANYBODY being illegal discriminated against Id want that addressed just like any illegal discrimination.

    Like I said it's a made up fear tactic, it's crap. If gays were given 100% equal rights tomorrow including equal anti-discrimination footing Christians lose ZERO religions rights and freedoms. In fact none of us lose anything. My rights as a person, as a woman, as a Christian are under zero threat because the reality is they are all the same. We all have the same rights and should but currently gays do not.

    In fact that's a good topic.
    I think you missed the point I was making entirely, but I don't respond to chopped up posts like that, most especially when they destroy the context of the post, so I'll just agree to disagree. I am quite secure in my own convictions on this subject.
    "I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it." --Benjamin Franklin 1776

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