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Thread: Is it wise for Christians to link the survival of Christianity to gay discrimination?

  1. #141
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    Re: Is it wise for Christians to link the survival of Christianity to gay discriminat

    Quote Originally Posted by MildSteel View Post
    We can go there too. If you are really basing it on activity then you would not cater to liars.
    That is incorrect. Everyone is a liar. I would not cater to (for example) events designed to teach people how to lie to their spouse without getting caught. But I would be fine catering to liars who (for example) were throwing a super bowl party.

    Remember that it's not the Identity - it's the Activity.
    Worth noting, Democrats: President Trump will have a Pen and a Phone. #Precedent.

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    Re: Is it wise for Christians to link the survival of Christianity to gay discriminat

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    That is incorrect. Everyone is a liar. I would not cater to (for example) events designed to teach people how to lie to their spouse without getting caught.

    Remember that it's not the Identity - it's the Activity.
    And here's what the Bible says about liars

    But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
    So lying is ok, but homosexuality is not ok. That is not how it works.

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    Re: Is it wise for Christians to link the survival of Christianity to gay discriminat

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    It has to do with having to actively participate in something one considers a sin, or actively help celebrate something the Bible teaches is a sin.

    For instance, if I owned a restaurant, and some guy walks in and says 'Hey, I'm a married man having an affair, and I want to celebrate my adultery with a wild swingers party. I want your restaurant to cater the party."

    I'd want the right to refuse to engage in an activity (catering his adultery party) celebrating a sinful activity (adultery).

    Now granted, the above scenario is highly improbable. Let's re-frame that...

    Say the rep for the Local Swingers 101 Club came by my restaurant, and said his group was having a big three-day event at a local hotel, featuring spouse-swapping and an orgy, and wanted my restaurant to cater and serve at the event.

    Biblically, that's a sin... I'd want the right to refuse service on that basis. (Frankly, I'd want the right to refuse service anyway because it is icky and objectionable and I don't want me or my employees exposed to that kind of environment!)


    Many conservative Christians would view being asked to cater/serve at a gay wedding in much the same light: being asked to help celebrate something sinful.


    Getting the picture better now?
    And this is why more and more people are turning to atheism or alternative religions. Here we have an example of a non-bigoted Christian (I assume) making excuses and essentially apologizing for the conduct of bad Christians.

    Guess what? Many Christians have come to accept the fact that gays CANNOT CHANGE THEIR NATURE, and thus it would be morally criminal to condemn them both in this life and the next. You can either join the revolution or be stuck playing clean up for the bigoted Christians of yesteryear.

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    Re: Is it wise for Christians to link the survival of Christianity to gay discriminat

    Quote Originally Posted by kjwins View Post
    Serious question man. I'm catholic, & we had one of these Priest at our church. Plus the hypocrisy of these people is unreal. I could see them being OK with it because he's a Priest
    What happened in the past was not right. I am not RCC myself.
    Hope the prick went to jail
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    Re: Is it wise for Christians to link the survival of Christianity to gay discriminat

    Quote Originally Posted by Amadeus View Post
    And this is why more and more people are turning to atheism or alternative religions. Here we have an example of a non-bigoted Christian (I assume) making excuses and essentially apologizing for the conduct of bad Christians.

    Guess what? Many Christians have come to accept the fact that gays CANNOT CHANGE THEIR NATURE, and thus it would be morally criminal to condemn them both in this life and the next. You can either join the revolution or be stuck playing clean up for the bigoted Christians of yesteryear.


    For a devout Christian, someone who actually believes, it is a bit more complicated than that.

    Being asked to choose between joining a popular trend and being right in God's eyes is easy... the devout person wants to be right with God.


    Then yes, there's the whole inborn/innate orientation question... that one has been argued extensively on DP, no point in derailing the thread with a long dissertation on it.
    There's the question of practicing vs celibate homosexuals, which is considered important by some denominations.
    There are the arguments that NT references to homosexuality referred to temple prostitution, pederasty and involuntary circumstances and not to committed and loving relationships, which remains highly controversial in Christiandom.

    Then there's the question of whether, when told by the law we must cater to things we fear are sinful, whether we should obey the law of man or risk displeasing God.


    Mere popularity, or being in line with current social trends, is not really a concern to the devout in comparison.


    Personally I am beset with some uncertainty on some of these questions myself... but I certainly will not condemn those whose conscience tells them they should not participate in such things. It isn't about hate (at least, not for most I believe), it is about being forced to participate in things one's conscience says are wrong.

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    Re: Is it wise for Christians to link the survival of Christianity to gay discriminat

    Quote Originally Posted by Montecresto View Post
    Oh ****, you believe that fairy tale ****, lol.
    I'd ask you to prove that but you'll just fall out here with another sophomoric rant.

    So just let it be said that I have the multiple, historical accounts and you have nothing but hot air denials.
    "Progressives aren't really progressive. They're regressive, all the way back to Sodom and Gomorrah." - author unknown

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    Re: Is it wise for Christians to link the survival of Christianity to gay discriminat

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    For a devout Christian, someone who actually believes, it is a bit more complicated than that.

    Being asked to choose between joining a popular trend and being right in God's eyes is easy... the devout person wants to be right with God.


    Then yes, there's the whole inborn/innate orientation question... that one has been argued extensively on DP, no point in derailing the thread with a long dissertation on it.
    There's the question of practicing vs celibate homosexuals, which is considered important by some denominations.
    There are the arguments that NT references to homosexuality referred to temple prostitution, pederasty and involuntary circumstances and not to committed and loving relationships, which remains highly controversial in Christiandom.

    Then there's the question of whether, when told by the law we must cater to things we fear are sinful, whether we should obey the law of man or risk displeasing God.


    Mere popularity, or being in line with current social trends, is not really a concern to the devout in comparison.


    Personally I am beset with some uncertainty on some of these questions myself... but I certainly will not condemn those whose conscience tells them they should not participate in such things. It isn't about hate (at least, not for most I believe), it is about being forced to participate in things one's conscience says are wrong.
    Why would anyone, as a Christian, seek to make life more miserable for someone that they know is going to be punished in the afterlife? It's certainly not out of love. Many gay people commit suicide in an effort to conform to non-gay/Christian standards.

    It simply seems like punching down.

    As an atheist, I have committed the most grievous sin of Christianity. I would never be denied service in America if I decided to celebrate an atheist wedding.

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    Re: Is it wise for Christians to link the survival of Christianity to gay discriminat

    Quote Originally Posted by Amadeus View Post
    Well, Jesus was a progressive and a reformer (of his own religion) and had an evolving opinion about many social issues.
    Jesus fulfilled the Old Testament prophecies that spoke about him. He was the true fulfillment of OT Judaism.

    And Jesus was no liberal.

    Was Jesus a liberal? ę The Righter Report

    Quote Originally Posted by Amadeus View Post
    And since Jesus set up the laws by which people are governed, it makes sense that he has since evolved on gay issues.
    There's no evidence of that in scripture.

    Jesus is God. As God, Jesus is the one who gave Moses the Levitical law against gay sexual relations to begin with; and heís the one who inspires all Scripture (2 Timothy 3:16), including prohibitions against gay sexual relations in Romans 1:26-27 and I Corinthians 6:9-10, etc.

    Itís also worth noting that Jesus didnít mention wife beating or other sins such as pedophilia either, and there are not many folks who would argue he approved of those behaviors. So Jesus was under no obligation to reiterate the moral laws against homosexual sin that already existed, unless there were clarifications to be made.

    Quote Originally Posted by Amadeus View Post
    Does he still command that children be put to death for being disobedient? Of course not.
    Capital punishment in the New Testament is either by God (Acts 5, etc.,) or government (Romans 13).
    "Progressives aren't really progressive. They're regressive, all the way back to Sodom and Gomorrah." - author unknown

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    Re: Is it wise for Christians to link the survival of Christianity to gay discriminat

    Quote Originally Posted by Amadeus View Post
    Why would anyone, as a Christian, seek to make life more miserable for someone that they know is going to be punished in the afterlife? It's certainly not out of love. Many gay people commit suicide in an effort to conform to non-gay/Christian standards.

    It simply seems like punching down.

    As an atheist, I have committed the most grievous sin of Christianity. I would never be denied service in America if I decided to celebrate an atheist wedding.

    Well, for instance, if you went to a church and asked to have a wedding there, and then asserted that it was going to be an "atheist wedding" and demanded no mention of God, etc.... they'd probably decline to host your wedding.


    Now, as for gays, I hear what you're saying. Personally, I've known some gay people, including a couple I considered friends. I made every effort to treat them like I would anyone else. Certainly I had no wish to be mean to them, or treat them badly. I did favors for them at times as I would any other person, like a ride to work when the car was in the shop, that sort of thing.

    Fortunately, they didn't ask me to put my stamp of approval on their lifestyle, nor did they ask me to participate in any kind of distinctly gay activities like a gay wedding... I would have declined to do so, as politely as possible.


    I think that part of the problem here is making a distinction between being NICE to gay people, and the issue of declining to PARTICIPATE in activities that are complicit in what is seen as sinful.

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    Re: Is it wise for Christians to link the survival of Christianity to gay discriminat

    Quote Originally Posted by Amadeus View Post
    Why would anyone, as a Christian, seek to make life more miserable for someone that they know is going to be punished in the afterlife? It's certainly not out of love.
    So you would feel right at home with Hitler and Pol Pot and Gayce running loose in heaven for eternity?

    Love does not rejoice in iniquity (1 Corinthians 13).

    If gays (and heterosexual sinners) want eternal love and peace then they need to repent of their sins and receive Christ for salvation.
    "Progressives aren't really progressive. They're regressive, all the way back to Sodom and Gomorrah." - author unknown

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