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Thread: Is it wise for Christians to link the survival of Christianity to gay discrimination?

  1. #111
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    Re: Is it wise for Christians to link the survival of Christianity to gay discriminat

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    You are conflating two non-identical things. Selling pizza slices to anyone who walks through the door =/= catering a gay wedding. One of these (as the post you were responding to delineated) is taking part in a ceremony that violates your faith.
    If I sell pizza then why would it matter if were ordered by/delivered to "sinners"? What is the biblical/religious basis for this objection? I have yet to see where Jesus said not to sell/serve food to homosexuals or any other "sinners".

    EDIT: It makes little sense to say that only during a wedding ceremony it is a sin to sell/serve pizza to homosexuals. The obvious next step is to deny services to any (carefully selected?) "sinner" at any time. Are these folks saying that before and after the wedding that they would knowingly serve these homosexual customers?
    Last edited by ttwtt78640; 04-03-15 at 08:43 AM.
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    Re: Is it wise for Christians to link the survival of Christianity to gay discriminat

    Quote Originally Posted by ttwtt78640 View Post
    If I sell pizza then why would it matter if were ordered by/delivered to "sinners"?
    You are conflating dissimilar things. We aren't talking about A Gay Guy Walks Up To The Counter And Orders A Deep Dish With Extra Cheese And Bacon, we are talking about supporting wedding ceremonies. It's not the identity, but rather the activity, that is being refused.


    But using the coercive power of the state to force people to violate their religion (or punish them for not doing so) is an interesting "libertarian" position for you to take. What other portions of the Bill of Rights do you think the State should restrict if others find a potential exercise of them to be "mean"?


    What is the biblical/religious basis for this objection? I have yet to see where Jesus said not to sell/serve food to homosexuals or any other "sinners".
    Do you mean what is the religious basis for objecting to homosexuality? Or to taking part in / supporting their weddings?
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    Re: Is it wise for Christians to link the survival of Christianity to gay discriminat

    Quote Originally Posted by Amadeus View Post
    Many Christians, certainly on the conservative side, are linking the survival of Christianity to their ability to discriminate against gays. They need to discriminate against gays in order to be true Christians.


    Aside from a few almost universally condemned extremists (cough*Westboro*cough), this is not a true statement.

    Conservative Christians are concerned that the current trends will lead to laws or policies that will try to prevent churches from teaching that homosexual behavior is a sin in the Bible, forcing them to choose between breaking the law and teaching what is widely considered a Biblical truth. This is considered a rather serious matter, because Christians are strongly commanded to stand up for the truth as presented by the Bible. Some consider compromising in this regard to be equivalent to a betrayal of one's faith in God.


    Now at present no one is telling Christian pastors that they cannot preach homosexuality as sin from the bible... at least, in America. There are other countries where it can get you in trouble, which leads many to be concerned about slippery slope issues. (Slippery slope isn't a fallacy when the slope is greased and someone is pushing, lol.)



    Ok. Now, at least, the issue has been properly framed.

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    Re: Is it wise for Christians to link the survival of Christianity to gay discriminat

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    You are conflating dissimilar things. We aren't talking about A Gay Guy Walks Up To The Counter And Orders A Deep Dish With Extra Cheese And Bacon, we are talking about supporting wedding ceremonies. It's not the identity, but rather the activity, that is being refused.
    So, if two straight people were getting a civil ceremony same sex marriage for tax purposes, that would be objectionable? On religious grounds???
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    Re: Is it wise for Christians to link the survival of Christianity to gay discriminat

    Quote Originally Posted by Amadeus View Post
    No, many Christians openly oppose homosexuals and seek to sabotage their acceptance within society. They try to elect people who support an anti-gay agenda, so that life can be made miserable for them where possible.
    well, if we're going to include voting habits, I guess both of our comments are wrong...

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    Re: Is it wise for Christians to link the survival of Christianity to gay discriminat

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    You are conflating dissimilar things. We aren't talking about A Gay Guy Walks Up To The Counter And Orders A Deep Dish With Extra Cheese And Bacon, we are talking about supporting wedding ceremonies. It's not the identity, but rather the activity, that is being refused.


    But using the coercive power of the state to force people to violate their religion (or punish them for not doing so) is an interesting "libertarian" position for you to take. What other portions of the Bill of Rights do you think the State should restrict if others find a potential exercise of them to be "mean"?




    Do you mean what is the religious basis for objecting to homosexuality? Or to taking part in / supporting their weddings?
    If the objection was to homosexuality then it should not be limited to wedding day service. The idea that supplying goods/services to sinners is participating in a sin is quite a stretch.
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    Re: Is it wise for Christians to link the survival of Christianity to gay discriminat

    Quote Originally Posted by ttwtt78640 View Post
    If I sell pizza then why would it matter if were ordered by/delivered to "sinners"? What is the biblical/religious basis for this objection? I have yet to see where Jesus said not to sell/serve food to homosexuals or any other "sinners".

    EDIT: It makes little sense to say that only during a wedding ceremony it is a sin to sell/serve pizza to homosexuals. The obvious next step is to deny services to any (carefully selected?) "sinner" at any time. Are these folks saying that before and after the wedding that they would knowingly serve these homosexual customers?

    It has to do with having to actively participate in something one considers a sin, or actively help celebrate something the Bible teaches is a sin.

    For instance, if I owned a restaurant, and some guy walks in and says 'Hey, I'm a married man having an affair, and I want to celebrate my adultery with a wild swingers party. I want your restaurant to cater the party."

    I'd want the right to refuse to engage in an activity (catering his adultery party) celebrating a sinful activity (adultery).

    Now granted, the above scenario is highly improbable. Let's re-frame that...

    Say the rep for the Local Swingers 101 Club came by my restaurant, and said his group was having a big three-day event at a local hotel, featuring spouse-swapping and an orgy, and wanted my restaurant to cater and serve at the event.

    Biblically, that's a sin... I'd want the right to refuse service on that basis. (Frankly, I'd want the right to refuse service anyway because it is icky and objectionable and I don't want me or my employees exposed to that kind of environment!)


    Many conservative Christians would view being asked to cater/serve at a gay wedding in much the same light: being asked to help celebrate something sinful.


    Getting the picture better now?

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    Re: Is it wise for Christians to link the survival of Christianity to gay discriminat

    Quote Originally Posted by countryboy View Post
    And it's not a violation of someone's rights to force them to participate in an activity which runs counter to the tenets of their faith? One way street much?
    I don't think that you read what I said.

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    Re: Is it wise for Christians to link the survival of Christianity to gay discriminat

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    You are conflating dissimilar things. We aren't talking about A Gay Guy Walks Up To The Counter And Orders A Deep Dish With Extra Cheese And Bacon, we are talking about supporting wedding ceremonies. It's not the identity, but rather the activity, that is being refused.


    But using the coercive power of the state to force people to violate their religion (or punish them for not doing so) is an interesting "libertarian" position for you to take. What other portions of the Bill of Rights do you think the State should restrict if others find a potential exercise of them to be "mean"?




    Do you mean what is the religious basis for objecting to homosexuality? Or to taking part in / supporting their weddings?

    Forgive me...but that is really a rather silly response. What difference does it make it the guy walks into the shop or asks to have them delivered? They aren't being asked to participate in the ceremony. Does it matter if he says "I need 50 pizzas" and doesn't say what they are for? If he says "I need 50 pizzas and I need them delivered to Happiness wedding hall? or if he says "I need 50 pizzas delivered to Happiness pizza hall for my gay wedding?

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    Re: Is it wise for Christians to link the survival of Christianity to gay discriminat

    "Participating" in activities that "violate one's religion" is so subjective and "justifiable". For instance. I grew up in Utah. As everyone knows Utah is full of Mormons. Mormons preach staunchly about "keeping the Sabbath day holy". As a result, church owned businesses are closed on Sundays (or are they). The church owns a mall downtown and all of those business, whether Mormon or not, are required to be closed on Sundays.
    Yet, the Mormon church runs the local NBC affiliate (KSL channel 5) which broadcasts all day on Sunday, including newscasts, the run a hotel across from the Mormon temple that is open on Sundays, requiring employees to work, they own a newspaper (Deseret News) which is published and delivered on Sundays. In other words.....they believe in "Keeping the Sabbath day holy" where it is convenient for them. Same with the pizza, bakery, florist bigots. They believe strongly in their religious tenents when it suits them, but can easily justify it when it doesn't.

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