View Poll Results: Has support for Israel become the new GOP litmus test?

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  1. #71
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    Re: Has support for Israel become the new GOP litmus test?

    Quote Originally Posted by MildSteel View Post
    Yeah they do that but they forget about all this



    Concerning Netanyahu, even people like Sarkozy can't stand him he is such a liar



    Sarkozy tells Obama Netanyahu is a liar | Reuters

    That is so sad, so very, very sad.
    They are all liar's. They are indeed politicians.

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    Re: Has support for Israel become the new GOP litmus test?

    Quote Originally Posted by Apocalypse View Post
    I think it's nonsense and that it will not have any effect on the US at all whatsoever, neither on the EU.
    I think it's more a case of getting involved in a conflict rather than having an actual interest, of either the EU or of the US.
    If anything it's a US interest that Israel prevails and that's pretty much all there is to it. Israel is the Western democracy that has economic and military ties with the US, and the US gets its oil from countries like Saudi Arabia regardless of Israel prevailing, so yeah.
    And regarding stability it's even a bigger nonsense, since solving the issue will only solve the conflict with the least amount of bloodshed in the entire Mideast, and one that does not influence at all the other conflicts.
    Why are EU countries cutting the diplomatic cord with the US on the 2 State Policy?
    Because according to Bibi it will not happen.
    So you will see more diplomatic relations between EU countries and Palestine- you will see selective trade sanctions imposed on Israel by EU countries.
    You will see Palestine admitted to more UN committees –orgs.
    You will eventually see a motion on the UN floor recognizing the State of Palestine.
    Now Israel can get in front of the parade and provide direction, or follow at the end and be reactive.

    If you think this is a not serious matter that does not impact the US and other countries, you are avoiding reality.

    European Parliament passes motion in favor of Palestine recognition - Diplomacy and Defense - Israel News | Haaretz!

    The European Parliament "supports in principle the recognition of Palestinian statehood and the two-state solution, and believes these should go hand in hand with the development of peace talks, which should be advanced," read the motion, whose phrasing reflected a compromise between various European parties.
    The motion stressed that the European Parliament’s decision to recognize a Palestinian state is based on the fact that the Palestine Liberation Organization had recognized the State of Israel in 1993
    General Assembly Votes Overwhelmingly to Accord Palestine

    Voting by an overwhelming majority — 138 in favour to 9 against (Canada, Czech Republic, Israel, Marshall Islands, Micronesia (Federated States of), Nauru, Panama, Palau, United States), with 41 abstentions — the General Assembly today accorded Palestine non-Member Observer State status in the United Nations.
    International recognition of the State of Palestine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    In order for a state to gain membership in the General Assembly, its application must have the support of two-thirds of member states with a prior recommendation for admission from the Security Council. This requires the absence of a veto from any the Security Council's five permanent members.[36] At the prospect of a veto from the United States, Palestinian leaders signalled they might opt instead for a more limited upgrade to "non-member state" status, which requires only a simple majority in the General Assembly but provides the Palestinians with the recognition they desire.
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  3. #73
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    Re: Has support for Israel become the new GOP litmus test?

    Quote Originally Posted by PoS View Post
    LOL youve got to be kidding. Isreal is causing most of the wars and conflict in that region since its founding.

    "Every time anyone says that Israel is our only friend in the Middle East, I can't help but think that before Israel, we had no enemies in the Middle East."
    -- John Sheehan, S.J.
    The source of that 'quote' seems to be an article on Holocaust Denial website 'Institute for Historical Review'/IHR:
    Is Israel Our Friend?
    Posted on many anti-Israel/antisemitic websites.
    And Of course, there were very few states in the M-E pre-WWII/Pre-WWI to be enemies with. It was all the Ottoman Empire until 1918.

    Someone as curious as me:
    The Debate Link: 05/05/2013 - 05/12/2013
    With Friends Like These....

    A Facebook friend, with the ever-so-wry "just sayin'", just posted a quote attributed to a certain Father John Sheehan, S.J.:

    “Every time anyone says that Israel is our only friend in the Middle East, I can’t help but think that before Israel, we had no enemies in the Middle East.”

    As a pure statement of history, this is of course False. The U.S. has had its share of pre-1948 enemies in the Middle East (the Barbary Pirates, the Ottoman Empire in WWI, various Arab factions which sided with the Nazis in WWII, etc.).

    But pushing beyond that, I think this statement needs to be unpacked a bit even if we took it at face value. The argument being made by our friendly Jesuit priest is that prior to Israel's establishment, we were all buddy-buddy with the dominant powers in the Middle East, but that all went to hell once the Jews had the temerity to establish their own state. Damn Jews.
    [........]
    After doing all this work, I got interested in the Provenance of the Quote itself and who this "Father John Sheehan" is. And that is a surprisingly difficult proposition. The quote shows up a lot on Google, but it is almost invariably Unsourced except to say "John Sheehan, S.J." The closest thing I've found to a source is a citation to Volume 21, No. 2, p. 34 (2002) of the Journal of Historical Review. The problem being that the Journal of Historical Review is the house journal of Holocaust-deniers -- it's a Conspiracy website with footnotes.

    Meanwhile "John Sheehan" might as well be "John Doe" if you're thinking of generic name for a Jesuit Priest -- while that could just explain why it's so hard to find the particular "John Sheehan" who said it, it also might explain why there seemingly is no information of the :"John Sheehan" who supposedly said it.

    The bottom line is that I think the quote is a hoax -- it flies around various anti-Zionist and anti-Semitic circles, but I don't think it's real.


    This story does come with a happy ending though: I posted all of this (including my sense that the quote was Fake) on my friend's Facebook wall, and you know what she said? She thanked me for my sleuthing, admitted she had probably taken in, and resolved to be more careful next time (and affirmed that the quote did not express her views on the American/Israeli alliance, which she says should be preserved).
    Hardly surprising to see 'anti-Israel' PoS post it.
    Congrats PoS.
    Last-word away PoS.
    Last edited by mbig; 03-29-15 at 12:23 PM.
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  4. #74
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    Re: Has support for Israel become the new GOP litmus test?

    Quote Originally Posted by PoS View Post
    LOL youve got to be kidding. Isreal is causing most of the wars and conflict in that region since its founding.


    "Every time anyone says that Israel is our only friend in the Middle East, I can't help but think that before Israel, we had no enemies in the Middle East."
    -- John Sheehan, S.J.
    If he didn't say that, he should have and could have. Certainly many US leaders at the time expressed their concerns about the creation of Israel, considered that it would run counter to US interests, would alienate the Muslim nations, and be an expense to the US. Many examples, similar to the one below, shortly after the States creation confirmed those concerns.

    The Lavon Affair refers to a failed Israeli covert operation, code named Operation Susannah, conducted in Egypt in the Summer of 1954. As part of the false flag operation,[1] a group of Egyptian Jews were recruited by Israeli military intelligence to plant bombs inside Egyptian, American and British-owned civilian targets, cinemas, libraries and American educational centers. The bombs were timed to detonate several hours after closing time. The attacks were to be blamed on the Muslim Brotherhood, Egyptian Communists, "unspecified malcontents" or "local nationalists" with the aim of creating a climate of sufficient violence and instability to induce the British government to retain its occupying troops in Egypt's Suez Canal zone.[2]

    http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lavon_Affair
    Killing one person is murder, killing 100,000 is foreign policy

  5. #75
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    Re: Has support for Israel become the new GOP litmus test?

    Quote Originally Posted by JANFU View Post
    Why are EU countries cutting the diplomatic cord with the US on the 2 State Policy?
    Because according to Bibi it will not happen.
    So you will see more diplomatic relations between EU countries and Palestine- you will see selective trade sanctions imposed on Israel by EU countries.
    You will see Palestine admitted to more UN committees –orgs.
    You will eventually see a motion on the UN floor recognizing the State of Palestine.
    Now Israel can get in front of the parade and provide direction, or follow at the end and be reactive.

    If you think this is a not serious matter that does not impact the US and other countries, you are avoiding reality.

    European Parliament passes motion in favor of Palestine recognition - Diplomacy and Defense - Israel News | Haaretz!



    General Assembly Votes Overwhelmingly to Accord Palestine



    International recognition of the State of Palestine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    First of all if you believe the fact that the UN, US and EU involve themselves tirelessly with the Israeli-Palestinian conflict somehow implies it is an interest of either the US or the EU then you couldn't be more wrong. Secondly the above involvement was the same in the recent what? 30 years? It isn't the result of Netanyahu's statement if that's what you're implying. And finally, the actions promoted in the international facilities of the United Nations are not in support of the two-states solution, which is the only possible solution, but of a unilateral declaration of a Palestinian state that is not the result of negotiations and thus will not lead to peace. These actions must always be rejected by the US and never will be accepted by Israel, and the only thing the people who promote these United Nations resolutions are really promoting is yet more bloodshed, not peace as they are either misled to believe or misleading others to believe in the case of the Palestinians themselves.

    So no, solving the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is not an American interest and not a European interest. It grants them absolutely nothing. An interest is something that benefits your nation, and since the Israeli-Palestinian conflict effects only Israel and the Palestinians then only these two must see peace as a national interest. It will not "bring stability to the entire Middle East" as the delusional would claim and it will not minimize the bloodshed in the region since the amount of people who die due to this conflict on a daily average is nothing compared to places like Syria, Iraq, Afghanistan, Yemen, etc. So once again the fact that European and American administrations pay great attention to this conflict does not mean it somehow became a national interest of theirs as you were falsely claiming, so next time you're about to claim I'm avoiding reality you should do a reality check with yourself, first.
    "The darkest places in hell are reserved for those who maintain their neutrality in times of moral crisis."

    Dante Alighieri

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    Re: Has support for Israel become the new GOP litmus test?

    Quote Originally Posted by Apocalypse View Post
    First of all if you believe the fact that the UN, US and EU involve themselves tirelessly with the Israeli-Palestinian conflict somehow implies it is an interest of either the US or the EU then you couldn't be more wrong. Secondly the above involvement was the same in the recent what? 30 years? It isn't the result of Netanyahu's statement if that's what you're implying. And finally, the actions promoted in the international facilities of the United Nations are not in support of the two-states solution, which is the only possible solution, but of a unilateral declaration of a Palestinian state that is not the result of negotiations and thus will not lead to peace. These actions must always be rejected by the US and never will be accepted by Israel, and the only thing the people who promote these United Nations resolutions are really promoting is yet more bloodshed, not peace as they are either misled to believe or misleading others to believe in the case of the Palestinians themselves.

    So no, solving the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is not an American interest and not a European interest. It grants them absolutely nothing. An interest is something that benefits your nation, and since the Israeli-Palestinian conflict effects only Israel and the Palestinians then only these two must see peace as a national interest. It will not "bring stability to the entire Middle East" as the delusional would claim and it will not minimize the bloodshed in the region since the amount of people who die due to this conflict on a daily average is nothing compared to places like Syria, Iraq, Afghanistan, Yemen, etc. So once again the fact that European and American administrations pay great attention to this conflict does not mean it somehow became a national interest of theirs as you were falsely claiming, so next time you're about to claim I'm avoiding reality you should do a reality check with yourself, first.
    Every time there is a war in Gaza, regardless of how justified Israel is in engaging Hamas, in the end they lose support in the West.
    Each and every time support in the end for a Palestinian State increases.
    People can die by the 10’s of thousands as they are in Syria and other countries, and people nod off.
    They do not nod off in regards to this conflict.
    Support comes from the respective populations on their Govt. to act
    It did not suddenly appear, it has been growing for years in the EU.
    Bibi did a world of harm to Israel by stating he did not support a 2 Sate Solution, then backtracking with a clarification. The damage was done.

    Have the Palestinians thrown away perfect opportunities to settle this. Yes.
    Have they also thrown up roadblocks yes they have.

    Has Israel done the same under Bibi, yes imho.
    It used to be recognition of Israel was a demand, reasonable, that changed to recognizing Israel as a Jewish State. Why did that change?
    20 % of the population is Arab. What are they, 2nd rate citizens?
    A 2 State solution does benefit the US & EU- they rid themselves of a perennial problem, war, truce, rebuild, war, truce, rebuild.

    And if a deal is ever finalized, Israel must retain the right to pursue any who attack from that new state.
    And we have differing views on this.
    I can live with that.
    If my post offends you, I deeply Apple-O-Jize.

  7. #77
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    Re: Has support for Israel become the new GOP litmus test?

    Quote Originally Posted by JANFU View Post
    Every time there is a war in Gaza, regardless of how justified Israel is in engaging Hamas, in the end they lose support in the West.
    Each and every time support in the end for a Palestinian State increases.
    People can die by the 10’s of thousands as they are in Syria and other countries, and people nod off.
    They do not nod off in regards to this conflict.
    Support comes from the respective populations on their Govt. to act
    It did not suddenly appear, it has been growing for years in the EU.
    Bibi did a world of harm to Israel by stating he did not support a 2 Sate Solution, then backtracking with a clarification. The damage was done.

    Have the Palestinians thrown away perfect opportunities to settle this. Yes.
    Have they also thrown up roadblocks yes they have.

    Has Israel done the same under Bibi, yes imho.
    It used to be recognition of Israel was a demand, reasonable, that changed to recognizing Israel as a Jewish State. Why did that change?
    20 % of the population is Arab. What are they, 2nd rate citizens?
    A 2 State solution does benefit the US & EU- they rid themselves of a perennial problem, war, truce, rebuild, war, truce, rebuild.

    And if a deal is ever finalized, Israel must retain the right to pursue any who attack from that new state.
    And we have differing views on this.
    I can live with that.
    Bibi's long term position was placating the Us/West, with support for the Palestinian State. He told the truth the day before his election, got the nudge and went straight back to his prior position the day after. Everybody has seen this for exactly what it was.
    Killing one person is murder, killing 100,000 is foreign policy

  8. #78
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    Re: Has support for Israel become the new GOP litmus test?

    Quote Originally Posted by JANFU View Post
    Every time there is a war in Gaza, regardless of how justified Israel is in engaging Hamas, in the end they lose support in the West.
    Each and every time support in the end for a Palestinian State increases.
    People can die by the 10’s of thousands as they are in Syria and other countries, and people nod off.
    They do not nod off in regards to this conflict.
    Support comes from the respective populations on their Govt. to act
    It did not suddenly appear, it has been growing for years in the EU.
    Bibi did a world of harm to Israel by stating he did not support a 2 Sate Solution, then backtracking with a clarification. The damage was done.

    Have the Palestinians thrown away perfect opportunities to settle this. Yes.
    Have they also thrown up roadblocks yes they have.

    Has Israel done the same under Bibi, yes imho.
    It used to be recognition of Israel was a demand, reasonable, that changed to recognizing Israel as a Jewish State. Why did that change?
    20 % of the population is Arab. What are they, 2nd rate citizens?
    A 2 State solution does benefit the US & EU- they rid themselves of a perennial problem, war, truce, rebuild, war, truce, rebuild.

    And if a deal is ever finalized, Israel must retain the right to pursue any who attack from that new state.
    And we have differing views on this.
    I can live with that.
    The problem is that you're not actually showing, as you probably believe that you do, how this is an American or European interest. But rather what you're doing is emphasizing why Israel receives unfair attention - hypocritical even - among Western citizens and leaders and why it is so wrong that the focus on Israel is always so ridiculously disproportional when hundreds are murdered in places like Syria every bloody day yet people concern themselves about 300 houses that are being built for some Jewish families in some hell hole in the West Bank.

    Those who oppose Israel constantly and who are known as "anti-Israeli" 'criticize' Israel due to irrational hatred burning within them towards the Jewish state, how else can you explain the fact that these people believe Israel should receive thousands of rockets on its cities without taking any military action against the terrorists? These are a group of people who believe that Israel has no right to self-defense and falsely claim that it targets civilians for murder. In any other nation's case, US for example, who knows what would be the reply to thousands of rockets that are constantly launched at your civilians, even if you have advanced defense systems that minimize casualties such as those Israel has you have to react with a military operation. So the claim that Israel 'loses support' during such operations when in reality the only thing that happens is that these anti-Israelis are screaming louder is not at all accurate.

    Regarding Netanyahu's comments - he didn't reject his support for the two-states solution, all he's done is to say that it's not going to happen during his term because the Palestinians have made it clear that they're not willing to accept his conditions, the ones from 2009 in the speech at the Bar Ilan University where he had stated that he endorses the two-states solution. Even Obama admitted that this is all he said in his recent speech with the leader of Afghanistan. The amount of lies that are surrounding Israel when it comes to "news" is ridiculous, and the amount of people who believe these lies are way more.

    So to return to the subject no, the Israeli-Palestinian conflict does not constitute an interest for either the US or the European nations.
    A national interest is something that benefits your nation, not something that you are interested in as a person.
    "The darkest places in hell are reserved for those who maintain their neutrality in times of moral crisis."

    Dante Alighieri

  9. #79
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    Re: Has support for Israel become the new GOP litmus test?

    No, it is not supporting Israel but supporting Bibi Netanyahu and his Likud party that is the litmus test for republicans. If you don't adore Bibi and everything he says and does, you will most likely not get the votes from the die hard republican primary voters. You may have a better shot at the elected office of president if you would support all of Israel and all political leaders and not just the one IMHO like it seems is now the case among the applause happy republicans in the house and congress right now.
    Wilders is a piece of gutter trash, a gutless populist who has no morality to speak of.

  10. #80
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    Re: Has support for Israel become the new GOP litmus test?

    Quote Originally Posted by JANFU View Post
    Why are EU countries cutting the diplomatic cord with the US on the 2 State Policy?
    Because according to Bibi it will not happen.
    So you will see more diplomatic relations between EU countries and Palestine- you will see selective trade sanctions imposed on Israel by EU countries.
    You will see Palestine admitted to more UN committees –orgs.
    You will eventually see a motion on the UN floor recognizing the State of Palestine.
    Now Israel can get in front of the parade and provide direction, or follow at the end and be reactive.

    If you think this is a not serious matter that does not impact the US and other countries, you are avoiding reality.

    European Parliament passes motion in favor of Palestine recognition - Diplomacy and Defense - Israel News | Haaretz!



    General Assembly Votes Overwhelmingly to Accord Palestine



    International recognition of the State of Palestine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    Europe hating Jews is as predictable and historic as it gets, isn't it?

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