View Poll Results: Are Republicans against helping the middle class?

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  • Yes

    28 33.73%
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    51 61.45%
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    3 3.61%
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Thread: Are Republicans against helping the middle class?

  1. #351
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    Re: Are Republicans against helping the middle class?

    Quote Originally Posted by MildSteel View Post
    That is too much power to have. What that example illustrates is how the wealthy have been able to demonize the poor in the minds of the middle class to distract their attention from the fact that the wealthy are actually working them to death and giving them very little in return relative to the benefits that the wealthy are getting from their labor. It is truly remarkable.
    Indeed it is.
    Here is something I've found and expanded on to describe the capitalist system.
    Worth in capitalism is abstract human labour. That means, a commodity is worth as much as the standard way of making it costs in term of human labour time. This means that businesses in capitalism don't exist in order to produce some defined amount of useful goods, but rather to extract as much labour out of the workers as possible. This means long working hours, as few holidays as possible, machines to make production easier only if it is profitable.
    Also, capitalism is about getting the most of this abstract human labour (worth) produced for the business, instead of the worker. This is a goal that most capitalists have for themselves, although even if you don't have the goal to exploit as much as possible, the forces of competition kind of get you to do it. This means low wages for the workers in absolute terms (less bucks) and even less in relative terms (smaller percentage of total wealth produced).
    Also, a source of income for capitalists are natural resources. You can take things from nature for free, resources and so on. Capitalists, since they are about profit, and only can reproduce themselves for long times if they are only about profit, are ruthless in the way they treat nature. Considerations like sustainability, health damages and so on have to take the back seat to making a profit by exploiting nature as much as possible, with all the bad consequences we witness today.

  2. #352
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    Re: Are Republicans against helping the middle class?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dovkan View Post
    Indeed it is.
    Here is something I've found and expanded on to describe the capitalist system.
    Worth in capitalism is abstract human labour. That means, a commodity is worth as much as the standard way of making it costs in term of human labour time. This means that businesses in capitalism don't exist in order to produce some defined amount of useful goods, but rather to extract as much labour out of the workers as possible. This means long working hours, as few holidays as possible, machines to make production easier only if it is profitable.
    Also, capitalism is about getting the most of this abstract human labour (worth) produced for the business, instead of the worker. This is a goal that most capitalists have for themselves, although even if you don't have the goal to exploit as much as possible, the forces of competition kind of get you to do it. This means low wages for the workers in absolute terms (less bucks) and even less in relative terms (smaller percentage of total wealth produced).
    Also, a source of income for capitalists are natural resources. You can take things from nature for free, resources and so on. Capitalists, since they are about profit, and only can reproduce themselves for long times if they are only about profit, are ruthless in the way they treat nature. Considerations like sustainability, health damages and so on have to take the back seat to making a profit by exploiting nature as much as possible, with all the bad consequences we witness today.
    That was a good analysis.

    Again what is amazing is that the wealthy have made the middle class believe it is the poor that are trying to get the middle class to serve them!!! WOW!!!!

    Truly amazing!!!

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    Re: Are Republicans against helping the middle class?

    Quote Originally Posted by MildSteel View Post
    That was a good analysis.

    Again what is amazing is that the wealthy have made the middle class believe it is the poor that are trying to get the middle class to serve them!!! WOW!!!!

    Truly amazing!!!
    Indeed it is. I look at things from the perspective of marxism,
    A worldview and a method of societal analysis that focuses on class relations and societal conflict, that uses a materialist interpretation of historical development, and a dialectical view of social transformation.
    , although my initial entry into this forum confounded me to lie about what I actually agree with in order to avoid a witch hunt, but I'm prepared now.

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    Re: Are Republicans against helping the middle class?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dovkan View Post
    Indeed it is. I look at things from the perspective of marxism, , although my initial entry into this forum confounded me to lie about what I actually agree with in order to avoid a witch hunt, but I'm prepared now.
    Well it is surely an interesting perspective, and although I can't say I agree totally with everything I have read by Marx, it most certainly has some very strong points and provides an excellent framework for analysis of some of the problems that exercise mankind today. I think that people could certainly benefit from a least making some attempt at understanding things from that perspective.

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    Re: Are Republicans against helping the middle class?

    Quote Originally Posted by MildSteel View Post
    Well it is surely an interesting perspective, and although I can't say I agree totally with everything I have read by Marx, it most certainly has some very strong points and provides an excellent framework for analysis of some of the problems that exercise mankind today. I think that people could certainly benefit from a least making some attempt at understanding things from that perspective.
    Absolutely, but most people are prone to denounce and refuse discussion/insult those who mention "marxism, karl, marx, communist, communism.."

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    Re: Are Republicans against helping the middle class?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dovkan View Post
    Absolutely, but most people are prone to denounce and refuse discussion/insult those who mention "marxism, karl, marx, communist, communism.."
    It is because how we brainwash people. I remember I was in high school when someone actually really tried to explain some Marxist principles to me outside of the typical brainwashed version that is taught in school and seen in the media. I was shocked. I'm not kidding. Even up to that late of an age I thought it was about some sort of totalitarian tyranny.

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    Re: Are Republicans against helping the middle class?

    Quote Originally Posted by MildSteel View Post
    It is because how we brainwash people. I remember I was in high school when someone actually really tried to explain some Marxist principles to me outside of the typical brainwashed version that is taught in school and seen in the media. I was shocked. I'm not kidding. Even up to that late of an age I thought it was about some sort of totalitarian tyranny.
    That's essentially how it is, I've found another great observation that hopefully helps put forth my thoughts.
    There is some popular wisdom (in some places) that we live in some sort of "corporatism" or an "impure" kind of capitalism - something other than what was intended.
    On the contrary, it seems that capitalism by its nature leads to concentration of capital, monopoly-building, imperialism, growing alienation, consumerist culture, and so on. See Marx's Capital for a rather thorough description of these forces. If you accept this, then it becomes rather hard to justify removing restrictions on capital and capitalists.
    Communism becomes a convincing alternative once you rid yourself of the strawman version of communism that your textbook probably described. The point is to eliminate class society - when the economic interests of all the people are united, democracy can truly exist. Until then, the ruling class has nearly complete control over the state.

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    Re: Are Republicans against helping the middle class?

    Quote Originally Posted by MildSteel View Post
    Refinancing a loan is paying your own way.
    It is certainly better than having the state make a grant.

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    Re: Are Republicans against helping the middle class?

    Quote Originally Posted by MildSteel View Post
    That is not correct because quite frequently people move across interstate boundaries. If people were confined to the state of their residence what you said would be true. But today especially, because of advances in transportation and communication, what states do have an effect nationwide.



    No that is not true. That is what people like Rush Limbaugh, Mike Savage, and Glenn Beck have fooled people into believing. Now what is true is that the erosion of civil liberties due the policies of the Republican administration of George Bush and continued under Barack Obama have hurt the middle class in terms of civil liberties, but that is a different matter than economically speaking.



    The poor can't force anyone to do anything in this country. That is a very inaccurate statement.



    Republicans have brainwashed people into believing that, but in reality, their policies have been hostile to middle class interests.
    I'm pretty sure I can support my arguments, and just saying something isn;t true without explaining why it isnt true is really bad debate form. So is suggesting your opponent said something she didn't say at all. A good debate judge takes a lot of points off for that offense.
    "I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it." --Benjamin Franklin 1776

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    Re: Are Republicans against helping the middle class?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dovkan View Post
    That's essentially how it is, I've found another great observation that hopefully helps put forth my thoughts.
    There is some popular wisdom (in some places) that we live in some sort of "corporatism" or an "impure" kind of capitalism - something other than what was intended.
    On the contrary, it seems that capitalism by its nature leads to concentration of capital, monopoly-building, imperialism, growing alienation, consumerist culture, and so on. See Marx's Capital for a rather thorough description of these forces. If you accept this, then it becomes rather hard to justify removing restrictions on capital and capitalists.
    Communism becomes a convincing alternative once you rid yourself of the strawman version of communism that your textbook probably described. The point is to eliminate class society - when the economic interests of all the people are united, democracy can truly exist. Until then, the ruling class has nearly complete control over the state.
    Those are some good thoughts and I totally agree with your conclusion that

    If you accept this, then it becomes rather hard to justify removing restrictions on capital and capitalists.
    Having said that, where I diverge with Marx is the notion that the elimination of class in society is the solution. I don't think that is possible. People are just different. The problem is that the capitalist class has far too much power relative to the value that they contribute to the upliftment of human society. One possible way to deal with this may be to tax wealth very heavily.

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