View Poll Results: What is the best example of fair punishment for a week?

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  • Timmy has 2 toys, Tommy has 4 toys. Both boys loose all toys.

    21 84.00%
  • Timmy has 2 toys, Tommy has 4 toys. Both boys loose 1 toy.

    2 8.00%
  • Timmy has 2 toys, Tommy has 4 toys. Both boys loose 2 toys.

    1 4.00%
  • Timmy has 2 toys, Tommy has 4 toys. Both boys loose 50% of their toys.

    1 4.00%
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Thread: "Fair" punishment

  1. #111
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    Re: "Fair" punishment

    Quote Originally Posted by Crovax View Post
    None of the options is "more equal" than the others. The 2 value options are in equal in value but unequal in % just as the 2 % options are equal in % but unequal in value.





    There is no real world application to a vague hypothetical. You might as well ask if killing 1 space alien if more ethical that killing 1 million space aliens, the answer doesnt matter because the scenario has no value. It doesnt matter what the answer I choose it because I can use the vagueness to fix the variables so that any answer I choose seems like the only fair answer.
    Thanks. You gave the same answer I did...but you put it into terms an engineer would understand. I don't have the ability to do that.
    TANSTAAFL

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    ― Robert A. Heinlein, Beyond This Horizon

  2. #112
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    Re: "Fair" punishment

    I'm glad judges aren't engineers.
    TANSTAAFL

    “An armed society is a polite society.”
    ― Robert A. Heinlein, Beyond This Horizon

  3. #113
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    Re: "Fair" punishment

    Quote Originally Posted by Medusa View Post
    I know but I need to learn what exactly caused them to be punished.did they stop studying their lessons ? did they steal something from another person's bag ? did they insist on eating chocolate instead of brocoli? you see the type of punishment may change according to the context especially when these are kids.its not that simple if its about kids
    As I am to understand, Tom and Tim committed the same "crime" .. But, the question is ,IMO, should ones wealth be a factor in the punishment ??
    Strangely, I am with 90% of the people .
    Speed , rich or poor ...lose your vehicle for one month
    Screw over the people (France, Russia) ...lose your life

  4. #114
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    Re: "Fair" punishment

    Quote Originally Posted by pdog View Post
    Why is the only "effective" option to remove all toys? I'm interested in the thought process that let people arrive there.

    Even if equality isn't the goal, didn't we effectively achieve equality? By making both boys loose all toys we effectively changed the units to something that does relate equally to both boys - TIME away from toys.
    No, The error is in the idea that any loss equals punishment. Not true.
    "It is only when men contemplate the greatness of God that they can come to realize their own inadequacy." Jean Calvin

  5. #115
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    Re: "Fair" punishment

    Quote Originally Posted by pdog View Post
    What makes zero toys the "same punishment". My explanation is that by doing all toys, you're effectively changing the units to TIME without toys. With that what is the inherent problem with toys as a unit of punishment?
    Again, Loss does not equal punishment. Deprivation does. Toys have no inherent value, 10 toys could mean less to one boy than 1 toy to another, therefore there is no objective unit value. Convert the question to currency (earned), and apply to free adults and the question is answered differently.

    Zero toys is the same punishment because it is measured by deprivation (time without toys) not by unit loss (value of items).
    "It is only when men contemplate the greatness of God that they can come to realize their own inadequacy." Jean Calvin

  6. #116
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    Re: "Fair" punishment

    Quote Originally Posted by pdog View Post
    But can you quantify the "obviousness" of that choice. That's the part I'm interested in - looking at the subconscious logic instead of just treating it as a gut feeling.
    The purpose of temporarily removing a child's toy is to punish them.It isn't really a punishment if the child has an alternative.
    "A nation can survive its fools, and even the ambitious. But it cannot survive treason from within. An enemy at the gates is less formidable, for he is known and carries his banner openly. But the traitor moves amongst those within the gate freely, his sly whispers rustling through all the alleys, heard in the very halls of government itself. For the traitor appears not a traitor; he speaks in accents familiar to his victims, and he wears their face and their arguments, he appeals to the baseness that lies deep in the hearts of all men. He rots the soul of a nation, he works secretly and unknown in the night to undermine the pillars of the city, he infects the body politic so that it can no longer resist. A murder is less to fear"

    Cicero Marcus Tullius

  7. #117
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    Re: "Fair" punishment

    Quote Originally Posted by earthworm View Post
    As I am to understand, Tom and Tim committed the same "crime" .. But, the question is ,IMO, should ones wealth be a factor in the punishment ??
    Strangely, I am with 90% of the people .
    Speed , rich or poor ...lose your vehicle for one month
    Screw over the people (France, Russia) ...lose your life
    if I have nothing there is nothing to lose.lets distribute our wealth to the others
    "Sovereignty is not given, it is taken." ATATÜRK

  8. #118
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    Re: "Fair" punishment

    Quote Originally Posted by ttwtt78640 View Post
    Except that mere vengeance is not the goal - the goal is changing behavior (getting the child to do their homework). Taking away time with toys may or may not act as an equal incentive to change behavior, regardless of the number of toys taken away.
    I'm not sure what your point is.

  9. #119
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    Re: "Fair" punishment

    Quote Originally Posted by johndylan1 View Post
    No, The error is in the idea that any loss equals punishment. Not true.
    Not sure what you mean, please elaborate.

  10. #120
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    Re: "Fair" punishment

    Quote Originally Posted by johndylan1 View Post
    Zero toys is the same punishment because it is measured by deprivation (time without toys) not by unit loss (value of items).
    I'm not sure how this is different from what I said. Units do not imply value. Hours is a unit of time.

    Again, Loss does not equal punishment. Deprivation does. Toys have no inherent value, 10 toys could mean less to one boy than 1 toy to another, therefore there is no objective unit value.
    You're right there's no objective unit value with toys - that's why we use time instead, no?

    Convert the question to currency (earned), and apply to free adults and the question is answered differently.
    If this was an analogy, why do you see it as a failed analogy?

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