View Poll Results: What is the best example of fair punishment for a week?

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  • Timmy has 2 toys, Tommy has 4 toys. Both boys loose all toys.

    21 84.00%
  • Timmy has 2 toys, Tommy has 4 toys. Both boys loose 1 toy.

    2 8.00%
  • Timmy has 2 toys, Tommy has 4 toys. Both boys loose 2 toys.

    1 4.00%
  • Timmy has 2 toys, Tommy has 4 toys. Both boys loose 50% of their toys.

    1 4.00%
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Thread: "Fair" punishment

  1. #91
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    Re: "Fair" punishment

    Quote Originally Posted by pdog View Post
    I never considered this a complex question until recently. I wanted to put it into generic terms and see what kind of responses I got but do it in terms that was a little less loaded. This is largely a social science question regarding concepts like surplus, deprivation, etc.

    This is simply an opinion poll. The boys are the same in each scenario, and you can assume that they misbehaved in the same manner. The number of toys never change. The only thing that changes is the cost of punishment. Choose the one you feel treats both boys with the same degree of punishment and maybe explain why.
    The answer is obviously the first poll choice.Because with the other choices Tommy is not punished the same as Timmy due to the fact with every option Tommy has more toys to play with than Timmy. Those with the dicks of the rich in their mouth will claim that trying to make financial punishments hurt the same is just a e-vile socialist commie plot of stealing from the rich and redistributing to others.
    "A nation can survive its fools, and even the ambitious. But it cannot survive treason from within. An enemy at the gates is less formidable, for he is known and carries his banner openly. But the traitor moves amongst those within the gate freely, his sly whispers rustling through all the alleys, heard in the very halls of government itself. For the traitor appears not a traitor; he speaks in accents familiar to his victims, and he wears their face and their arguments, he appeals to the baseness that lies deep in the hearts of all men. He rots the soul of a nation, he works secretly and unknown in the night to undermine the pillars of the city, he infects the body politic so that it can no longer resist. A murder is less to fear"

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  2. #92
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    Re: "Fair" punishment

    Quote Originally Posted by johndylan1 View Post
    In terms of The word "punishment" the only effective negative reinforcement that is available is to remove all toys. In terms of fairness, equality isn't the preeminent goal but effectiveness is. Punishment shapes behavior, fairness shapes feelings.
    Why is the only "effective" option to remove all toys? I'm interested in the thought process that let people arrive there.

    Even if equality isn't the goal, didn't we effectively achieve equality? By making both boys loose all toys we effectively changed the units to something that does relate equally to both boys - TIME away from toys.

  3. #93
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    Re: "Fair" punishment

    Quote Originally Posted by Quag View Post
    The poll is rigged, there is no option for locking them in the basement for a month.
    considering you are joking ( you may guess what I think now ) that would be fantastic
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  4. #94
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    Re: "Fair" punishment

    Quote Originally Posted by KevinKohler View Post
    Well, I'm no parental expert...I have a 5 year old daughter, and a 3 year old son, and frankly, I just kinda make **** up as I go. I think my parents did a pretty bang up job with me, but I can't remember **** from when I was 5. I think that taking things away makes for a better punishment than physical pain or fear, up to a point. Physical pain is over with rather quickly, unless you're a hardcore spanker, at which point...well, we won't get into that. For me, as a kid, the worst was when I KNEW I was getting a spanking when my dad got home, and had to sit around and WAIT for it. My kids are still a bit young for that, IMO, so I take away something equally precious, their time. Time out for me is sitting in a chair facing the wall at the end of the hallway, QUIETLY. The timer doesn't start till you stop crying or yelling or screaming. Works wonders. I don't think I would be physically capable of taking away ALL of their toys. I'd have to lock them in the computer room, and even then, they might have one or two stashed.
    Agree on all accounts. We have similar parenting styles (I have two kids of similar age and the same distance apart). I try not to yell - it's a signal to the kid that I'm loosing control and kids are fricking geniuses at exploiting inconsistency. Instead repeating the same answer over in over in a calm voice is my game - you can literally see and hear the kid grow more and more frustrated that he is not having any luck changing the outcome.


    As for the other argument...punishments between the wealthy and not wealthy will NEVER be fair. They CAN'T be. Good quote from the last Batman movie...."The rich don't even go broke the same...". And that's the truth. You could take away ALL of Warren Buffets money for speeding, and the man would be perfectly fine. He has access to resources the rest of us don't, by virtue of his wealth and reputation. There's no changing that, and all progressive fines will serve to do is make our legal system even worse, more expensive, and more jammed up. Imagine a world where rich people hire lawyers to fight every single fine or citation, instead of just paying them outright?

    Taking away half of their toys does not deprive them of toys. A kid only needs one. I mean, if you had older kids, with a xbox or whatever, would taking away HALF of his video games REALLY hurt him? Not really. Sure, he'll wine for a few minutes, but then he'll realize he's perfectly fine picking up some game he hasn't played in a while. Same with kids and toys. It doesn't....hurt them. It's just not gonna deter them from acting up, the same way taking away ALL of their toys would. And for my money, timeout is SO MUCH EASIER.
    I don't disagree at all. Not one single bit. But it was obvious to you that an arbitrary number of toys is not effective, presumably since in the case of your kids, they have more than enough other toys to insulate themselves from the punishment. An earlier poster broke the toys down into a point value system - each person has the same number of points and those points are divided by the number of toys, showing the difference in personal value that each toy has. The reoccurring theme is that when the cost has the same availability to each person, the punishment is deemed fair. In the case here everybody goes with TIME - no toys is the same as timeouts - they are both TIME away from toys and both boys have roughtly the same amount of time to sacrifice. Is it perfect, no. Never will be. But it seems that we can do the same thing with fines that we are doing with toys - just not use them.


    Effective, yes, as evidenced by a lack of rich people speeding around all over the place...fair? No.
    First we'd have to have statistical data for this. But isn't it a red herring anyway? Why do we need to treat effectiveness and equality separately? If we just remove toys/fines, don't we end up with a system that is both more effective and more equal?

  5. #95
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    Re: "Fair" punishment

    Quote Originally Posted by Medusa View Post
    considering you are joking ( you may guess what I think now ) that would be fantastic
    Well I was considering sending them to the salt mines for punishment should have been an option, but not everyone lives near one
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  6. #96
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    Re: "Fair" punishment

    Quote Originally Posted by Crovax View Post
    Everything has disparity, all of your punishments are equal and not equal depending on the standard applied
    I disagree. One of those options effectively changed the unit of punishment (toys) to something more equally held amongst the boys.


    Hypotheticals are poor debate fodder to begin with and vague hypotheticals are even worse. Why am I punishing the boys, not what action but why am I the arbiter? Are they both my boys, then why did I buy one so many more toys than the other? Is only one my boy, why am I punishing someone elses kid? Am I a teacher of the boys, what right do I have to take away their toys?
    I disagree. I understand people's need to have more realistic details, but that should be entirely unnecessary with abstract thinking. I'm an engineer and these are variables to me. The punishment is X. I don't need to know what X - because if X is the same on both sides of the equation, it simply cancels. For those that need a little more realism, I tell them both boys decided to play with their toys instead of doing homework. But that's all you get. You need to be able to imagine two completely equal boys in all ways accept for the number of toys. Is it realistic to imagine that you personally know two perfectly equal boys. Of course not, but that is not the focus - and the reality is that this abstract thinking parallels the aggregate very well. You might not be able to find two perfectly equal boys. But you could take two large groups of boys and do the exact same thing.

  7. #97
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    Re: "Fair" punishment

    While "the basement" part is extreme - isn't that effectively "no toys"?

  8. #98
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    Re: "Fair" punishment

    Quote Originally Posted by pdog View Post
    I never considered this a complex question until recently. I wanted to put it into generic terms and see what kind of responses I got but do it in terms that was a little less loaded. This is largely a social science question regarding concepts like surplus, deprivation, etc.

    This is simply an opinion poll. The boys are the same in each scenario, and you can assume that they misbehaved in the same manner. The number of toys never change. The only thing that changes is the cost of punishment. Choose the one you feel treats both boys with the same degree of punishment and maybe explain why.
    Sorry, but I wouldn't take away any toys. I'd spank both boys until they couldn't sit.

    (I'm just kidding. Don't worry, I don't think spanking is a suitable punishment)

    I would tailor my punishment to the particular boy. For example, one of the boys loves to play his musical instrument. I'd take that away. The other boy loves to play video games. Sorry, kid...the computer stays off.
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  9. #99
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    Re: "Fair" punishment

    Quote Originally Posted by jamesrage View Post
    The answer is obviously the first poll choice.Because with the other choices Tommy is not punished the same as Timmy due to the fact with every option Tommy has more toys to play with than Timmy.
    But can you quantify the "obviousness" of that choice. That's the part I'm interested in - looking at the subconscious logic instead of just treating it as a gut feeling.

  10. #100
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    Re: "Fair" punishment

    Quote Originally Posted by Quag View Post
    Well I was considering sending them to the salt mines for punishment should have been an option, but not everyone lives near one
    that would be less entertaining
    "Sovereignty is not given, it is taken." ATATÜRK

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