View Poll Results: Does Iran have a "Right" to Nuclear Weapons?

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    108 49.77%
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Thread: Does Iran have a "Right" to Nuclear Weapons?[W:296, 650]

  1. #541
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    Re: Does Iran have a "Right" to Nuclear Weapons?[W:296]

    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
    I don't know why it should matter if an opponent resents being told what to do by the United States, under threat of military force. What matters is that they do it--nothing else. What pleases the jihadist murderers in Tehran does not interest me. Nor do I care about reciprocity and fairness in dealing with bastards like them.

    In 1962, President Kennedy was not concerned with whether Nikita Khrushchev would be happy about being told to remove the nuclear missiles (and, as was discovered later, the 158 nuclear weapons, sixty of which were one megaton, large enough for even one to kill hundreds of thousands if set off over an American city) he had sneaked into Cuba. Kennedy's only concern was to force him to remove the missiles, or have this country remove them.

    And his threat of military force got the results he wanted. The threat was credible not only because the U.S. had several times as many strategic nuclear weapons as the Soviet Union did, but also because Kennedy had ordered 100 warships to blockade Cuba, had about 1,000 armed aircraft staged at forward bases near Cuba, landed 5,700 Marines to reinforce Guantanamo, and had moved six divisions, about 100,000 men, into position to invade the island.

    But then President Kennedy was a real man, unlike the weak sister who is now disgracing the White House.
    Oh, yes, the example of the Cuban Missile Crisis. On the other hand, in 2003, Saddam offered to go into exile for $1B. Which would have been cheaper - to pay the idiot $1B to leave, or to invade and spend hundreds of billions of dollars (and thousands of our lives and over 100K Iraqi lives) to find him and kill him?

    And when the Serbian national killed Archduke Ferdinand in 1914, Austria gave the Serbs a laundry list of demands and said, "comply within a month or we will invade". How did that one work out?

    Again, "Do this or we bomb you" is rarely (if ever) the wisest course of action. It might make the testosterone-addicted Right feel better, but in the long run, it's a really stupid way to go.
    To do evil, a human being must first of all believe that what hes doing is good" - Solzhenitsyn

    "...with the terrorists, you have to take out their families." - Donald Trump

  2. #542
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    Re: Does Iran have a "Right" to Nuclear Weapons?[W:296]

    Quote Originally Posted by cephus View Post
    depends on whose morals you're using. You're just assuming that we're right and everyone who disagrees with us is wrong. From the standpoint of others, that's absurd. I know you don't care but you have absurd biases.
    quoted for truth!!!!
    To do evil, a human being must first of all believe that what hes doing is good" - Solzhenitsyn

    "...with the terrorists, you have to take out their families." - Donald Trump

  3. #543
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    Re: Does Iran have a "Right" to Nuclear Weapons?[W:296]

    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
    Your suggestion that this country is morally equivalent to the regime of jihadist curs that rules Iran is disgusting. I don't care about hypothetical situations that will never come about. The United States should long ago have destroyed ever part of Iran's nuclear weapons program from the air, and its ballistic missile facilities as well. There may still be time to do this, after the current president has retired to the golf course for good.
    Okay, say we do what you suggest. Then say Iran looks to Russia for help, and Russia decides to put bases in Iran and tells us, "Bomb Iran again and we launch" at which point America's very existence (and human civilization as a whole) is threatened. The Soviets did back down in 1963, but that doesn't mean they'll back down this time.

    So you're the president - is it worth risking America's existence and human civilization to continue bombing Iran? Is it really?

    I just want to know how the heck satisfying your testosterone-worship would justify risking the deaths of hundreds of millions (and perhaps billions) of civilians.
    To do evil, a human being must first of all believe that what hes doing is good" - Solzhenitsyn

    "...with the terrorists, you have to take out their families." - Donald Trump

  4. #544
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    Re: Does Iran have a "Right" to Nuclear Weapons?[W:296]

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    Depends on whose morals you're using. You're just assuming that we're right and everyone who disagrees with us is wrong. From the standpoint of others, that's absurd. I know you don't care but you have absurd biases.
    I use my own morals, as I suppose everyone else does. I don't care if any other nation disagrees with U.S. policies. My only concern is that those policies advance the interests of this country. Nor do I care about seeing things from the point of view of any nation that is antagonistic to us. And I could just as easily call your biases absurd, if I wanted to personalize the issue.

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    Re: Does Iran have a "Right" to Nuclear Weapons?[W:296]

    Quote Originally Posted by Glen Contrarian View Post
    Oh, yes, the example of the Cuban Missile Crisis.
    Yes, that example. Of course you don't like it, because it flatly refutes your claim that the threat of force does not work.

    Again, "Do this or we bomb you" is rarely (if ever) the wisest course of action. It might make the testosterone-addicted Right feel better, but in the long run, it's a really stupid way to go.
    It sounds like you don't think very highly of testosterone.

  6. #546
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    Re: Does Iran have a "Right" to Nuclear Weapons?[W:296]

    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
    Yes, that example. Of course you don't like it, because it flatly refutes your claim that the threat of force does not work.
    And of course you completely ignored the crystal-clear examples of World War One and our invasion of Iraq, both of which flatly refute your claim that the threat of force works.

    It sounds like you don't think very highly of testosterone
    .

    If you had half the understanding you think you do, you'd realize that - like all other things - testosterone has it's time and place...and it very rarely belongs in diplomacy.
    To do evil, a human being must first of all believe that what hes doing is good" - Solzhenitsyn

    "...with the terrorists, you have to take out their families." - Donald Trump

  7. #547
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    Re: Does Iran have a "Right" to Nuclear Weapons?[W:296]

    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
    My only concern is that those policies advance the interests of this country. Nor do I care about seeing things from the point of view of any nation that is antagonistic to us.
    What a wonderful example of the mindset of so much of the Right.

    Fortunately for the world, most of the people in our government realize that seeing things from the point of view of the other nation IS very often in the interests of our own country. If you don't give a damn about them, they won't give a damn about you...and all of a sudden trade barriers go up and our economy goes to crap, and down we go back into recession.

    But hey, that's no big deal, is it? Who the heck cares if our actions drove us down into recession and threw millions of Americans out of work, as long as we let the rest of the world know that we don't give a damn about them, right?
    To do evil, a human being must first of all believe that what hes doing is good" - Solzhenitsyn

    "...with the terrorists, you have to take out their families." - Donald Trump

  8. #548
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    Re: Does Iran have a "Right" to Nuclear Weapons?[W:296]

    Quote Originally Posted by Glen Contrarian View Post
    Then say Iran looks to Russia for help and Russia decides to put bases in Iran and tells us, "Bomb Iran again and we launch" at which point America's very existence (and human civilization as a whole) is threatened.
    If there is any reason to believe the Khomeinists would do that--or if they did that their plea would be sympathetically received--you don't say what it is. It sound like nothing but the product of an active imagination, fed on a diet of third-rate disaster movies.

    The Soviets did back down in 1963
    The backing down over Cuba in fact took place in late October and November of 1962.

    but that doesn't mean they'll back down this time.
    You've offered no reason to think they would even be involved.

    So you're the president - is it worth risking America's existence and human civilization to continue bombing Iran? Is it really?
    Calm yourself. The sky is not really falling.

    I just want to know how the heck satisfying your testosterone-worship would justify risking the deaths of hundreds of millions (and perhaps billions) of civilians
    Testosterone again. It seems to occupy a prominent place in your thoughts.

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    Re: Does Iran have a "Right" to Nuclear Weapons?[W:296]

    Quote Originally Posted by Glen Contrarian View Post
    And of course you completely ignored the crystal-clear examples of World War One and our invasion of Iraq, both of which flatly refute your claim that the threat of force works.

    .

    If you had half the understanding you think you do, you'd realize that - like all other things - testosterone has it's time and place...and it very rarely belongs in diplomacy.
    It's "its."

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    Re: Does Iran have a "Right" to Nuclear Weapons?[W:296]

    Quote Originally Posted by Glen Contrarian View Post
    What a wonderful example of the mindset of so much of the Right.

    Fortunately for the world, most of the people in our government realize that seeing things from the point of view of the other nation IS very often in the interests of our own country. If you don't give a damn about them, they won't give a damn about you...and all of a sudden trade barriers go up and our economy goes to crap, and down we go back into recession.

    But hey, that's no big deal, is it? Who the heck cares if our actions drove us down into recession and threw millions of Americans out of work, as long as we let the rest of the world know that we don't give a damn about them, right?
    I don't know what "the Right" is. I have my own mind, and I speak for myself. Lacking your wide and worldly view, though, apparently I've forgotten to consider the threat of a trade war with ISIS. To say nothing about the vast amount of U.S. exports to Iran that would be placed at risk if we ever did anything that made its leaders feel invalidated or icky. Why, millions of Americans could be thrown out of work. The sky could fall. The tides could rise. The sun might not come up tomorrow.

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