View Poll Results: Does Iran have a "Right" to Nuclear Weapons?

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  • Yes

    108 49.77%
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    70 32.26%
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    26 11.98%
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    13 5.99%
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Thread: Does Iran have a "Right" to Nuclear Weapons?[W:296, 650]

  1. #481
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    Re: Does Iran have a "Right" to Nuclear Weapons?[W:296]

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Hays View Post
    Please do not speak for others. The Iranians will not have delivery systems capable of threatening the US for a long time. Israel and Saudi Arabia would come under threat immediately.
    And that's a bad thing how? I mean you don't see either of them out flying sorties against ISIS and if they ever did, it would only be if the U.S. bought them off. That's pretty much been the only way anyone on the Middle East has taken up serious arms against the extremists.
    There is nothing demonstrably true that religion can provide the world that cannot be achieved more rationally through entirely secular means.

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  2. #482
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    Re: Does Iran have a "Right" to Nuclear Weapons?[W:296]

    Quote Originally Posted by Kobie View Post
    That's like something out of a Steven Seagal movie. Do you know how hard that would be to do?
    Not very.

    I spent twenty years in the Navy - and yes, that included loading stuff on board ships. Even on a relatively small ship, there's many, many places to hide something the size of a nuclear warhead. Even the crudest of portable atomic bombs - the size of Little Boy or Fat Man - are easily loaded on a tramp steamer.
    “To do evil, a human being must first of all believe that what he’s doing is good" - Solzhenitsyn

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  3. #483
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    Re: Does Iran have a "Right" to Nuclear Weapons?[W:296]

    Quote Originally Posted by Grand Mal View Post
    Or a shipping container, buried under a stack of others on a dock.
    Very, very true.
    “To do evil, a human being must first of all believe that what he’s doing is good" - Solzhenitsyn

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  4. #484
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    Re: Does Iran have a "Right" to Nuclear Weapons?[W:296]

    Quote Originally Posted by Glen Contrarian View Post
    The British strongly disagree with you. From the British National Archives site:

    In the late 1800s and early 1900s, Britain was often described as being in 'Splendid Isolation' from the rest of Europe. Britain had a huge empire and ruling this empire was its priority. The key to Britain's power was India with its vast resources of manpower. Britain relied heavily on Indian troops to control the empire. The highest priority for Britain was protecting the trade routes between Britain and India. Britain's large navy protected trade links with India and with the rest of the world.

    Despite this focus on the empire, Britain was interested in events in Europe. To start with, other European countries had rival empires. Belgium and France both had large empires in Africa. There was strong rivalry between Britain and France over possessions in North Africa. By the early 1900s, Germany also had colonies in Africa and was beginning to show an interest in North Africa.

    . . . . (edited because of character limit)

    British policy in Europe intended that no country in Europe should become completely dominant. If Russia, France, Germany and Austria-Hungary worried about each other, then they would be less of a threat to Britain. By about 1907 it was becoming clear to Britain that the greatest potential threat to Britain was going to be Germany. The strong economy, large population and powerful armed forces of Germany seemed to be capable of dominating Europe. As a result, Britain began to support Russia and France. Britain joined the Triple Entente.

    Despite being part of the Triple Entente, Britain was not committed to going to war in 1914. The Foreign Secretary, Sir Edward Grey, spent much of the summer of 1914 furiously trying to reassure Russia and Germany and prevent a war happening. Even when German troops invaded France and Belgium as part of the Schlieffen Plan, Britain did not have to go to war.

    Germany hoped Britain would stay out of the war altogether. However, the Germans knew that Britain had promised to defend Belgium under the Treaty of London of 1839. The Germans wanted the British government to ignore the Treaty of London and let the German army pass through Belgium. The British government made much of their duty to protect Belgium. Belgium's ports were close to the British coast and German control of Belgium would have been seen as a serious threat to Britain. In the end, Britain refused to ignore the events of 4 August 1914, when Germany attacked France through Belgium. Within hours, Britain declared war on Germany. The Kaiser said how foolish he thought the British were. He said that Britain had gone to war for the sake of a "scrap of paper".

    Within a few more days, Britain, France and Russia (the Allies) were all officially at war with Germany and Austria-Hungary (the Central Powers). What had started as a small, local problem in the Balkans was turning into the biggest and most brutal war the world had ever seen.
    The Entente Cordiale (with France) in 1904 and a parallel agreement with Russia in 1907 left no doubt. Any ambiguity was just for diplomatic nicety. This puts it well.

    Britain’s choice for war came before the disaster in Belgium. The choice for war, if war erupted, was made on Sunday 2 August, when the Cabinet authorized Grey to pledge naval assistance to France – two days before the invasion of Belgium. This pledge almost wrecked the Cabinet. So appalled were neutralist ministers at their own government’s haste that four resigned on 2-3 August (Burns, Simon, Morley and Beauchamp). Nowhere else did this happen in Europe. The German invasion of Belgium was unleashed on the morning of Tuesday 4 August. Britain declared war upon Germany later that evening, the very instant her short ultimatum expired. London waited least. In this sense, the German invasion was the occasion of Britain’s intervention – but not the cause. It arrived as a gift from Mars for British politicians and propagandists. It provided political cover for a prior commitment to war. It squeezed Russia, and the invasion of Eastern Europe, out of the national consciousness and made war much easier to sell to the British public.
    Last edited by Jack Hays; 03-17-15 at 08:00 PM.
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  5. #485
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    Re: Does Iran have a "Right" to Nuclear Weapons?[W:296]

    Quote Originally Posted by Glen Contrarian View Post
    And as you can see here, even when France knew she was about to be invaded by the Germans, the French were very worried that the English would not join in the fight against Germany:

    Following their refusal to remain neutral in a war between Germany and Russia, French leaders knew it was only a matter of time before Germany declared war on France too. Now it was all-important to get Britain to take their side, as promised (informally) in military staff talks and slightly less ambiguous Anglo-French Naval Convention. But many members of the British cabinet were unaware of these secret agreements and understandably reluctant to embroil Britain in a cataclysmic continental war.

    On hearing word of the German invasion of neutral Luxembourg, whose neutrality was agreed in the Treaty of London of 1867, the French ambassador to London, Paul Cambon, asked Foreign Secretary Edward Grey whether Britain would fight. However Grey pointed out that, unlike the 1838 treaty guaranteeing Belgian neutrality, the 1867 treaty didn’t technically oblige Britain to take military action to protect to Luxembourg’s neutrality, if the other Great Powers weren’t also intervening. Cambon could barely contain his anger at this slippery reasoning, according to H. Wickham Steed, the foreign editor of The Times, who recalled, “he pointed to a copy of the Luxemburg Treaty… and exclaimed bitterly: ‘There is the signature of England… I do not know whether this evening the word “honor” will not have to be struck out of the British vocabulary.’”

    But Grey was merely representing the views of the British cabinet; personally, he had staked everything on British intervention, threatening to resign if the cabinet insisted on neutrality and working with First Lord of the Admiralty Winston Churchill to drum up support from the opposition Unionists. Unionist support gave Grey and Prime Minister Asquith crucial political leverage, as they might be able to form a new coalition government without the anti-interventionists.

    On August 2, Asquith went into the 11am cabinet meeting with a letter pledging Unionist support, and now the tide began to turn: although a handful of ministers resigned in protest, the rest of the cabinet agreed to at least protect the French coastline from German naval attacks, as promised in the naval convention of 1912. However, the deciding factor would be Germany’s violation of Belgian neutrality.
    As I said, there was never any real doubt.
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  6. #486
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    Re: Does Iran have a "Right" to Nuclear Weapons?[W:296]

    Quote Originally Posted by Glen Contrarian View Post
    It doesn't matter whether they are distrustful of negotiations, and it doesn't matter about what they think of their Shi'a population. What does matter to them is keeping the peace within their kingdom.
    They will simply send the Shia away if need be. They are much more ready for war than you imagine.
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  7. #487
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    Re: Does Iran have a "Right" to Nuclear Weapons?[W:296]

    Quote Originally Posted by Glen Contrarian View Post
    Yes, they do have a delivery system. It's called a "yacht" or a "ship".

    That's my personal fear - that they'll put one on board some rich-looking yacht and sail it up the Hudson.
    Too many chances for the secret to leak.
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  8. #488
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    Re: Does Iran have a "Right" to Nuclear Weapons?

    Quote Originally Posted by Montecresto View Post
    Fighting evil with evil= righteous.
    War compels cruel choices.
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  9. #489
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    Re: Does Iran have a "Right" to Nuclear Weapons?[W:296]

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    And that's a bad thing how? I mean you don't see either of them out flying sorties against ISIS and if they ever did, it would only be if the U.S. bought them off. That's pretty much been the only way anyone on the Middle East has taken up serious arms against the extremists.
    A number of countries fly with us against ISIS: Bahrain, Jordan, Qatar, Saudi Arabia and United Arab Emirates. The Israelis do not because their participation would make it difficult for the others.
    "It's always reassuring to find you've made the right enemies." -- William J. Donovan

  10. #490
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    Re: Does Iran have a "Right" to Nuclear Weapons?[W:296]

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Hays View Post
    A number of countries fly with us against ISIS: Bahrain, Jordan, Qatar, Saudi Arabia and United Arab Emirates. The Israelis do not because their participation would make it difficult for the others.
    Which is idiotic on every conceivable level. And the only reason anyone flies with us is because we're paying them. If we stopped, so would they.
    There is nothing demonstrably true that religion can provide the world that cannot be achieved more rationally through entirely secular means.

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