View Poll Results: Assad or Isis ?

Voters
119. You may not vote on this poll
  • Assad

    15 12.61%
  • Isis

    38 31.93%
  • I don't care

    41 34.45%
  • Other

    25 21.01%
Page 10 of 13 FirstFirst ... 89101112 ... LastLast
Results 91 to 100 of 130

Thread: Assad or ISIS ?

  1. #91
    Libertarian socialist

    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Staffs, England
    Last Seen
    12-13-17 @ 07:20 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Very Liberal
    Posts
    6,730

    Re: Assad or ISIS ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Montecresto View Post
    Very difficult to hold elections, with any sense of legitimacy, when your country is torn apart in a civil war, a war against terrorism, in a country that's nearly fractured in thirds with different powers in control, and foreign fighters supported by neighboring Arab States as well as Western powers pushing for "regime change" and control of the country, don't ya think??
    They did hold parliamentary elections in 2012, as well as a consitutional referendum, likewise Lincon was elected in your own country during a civil war.
    Syrian parliamentary election, 2012 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Likewise the 'Al' Assad family have been in power since 1971, why has there never been a vote if they are so popular?

  2. #92
    Guru
    sawdust's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Last Seen
    03-04-16 @ 09:47 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Libertarian - Right
    Posts
    3,177

    Re: Assad or ISIS ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Red_Dave View Post
    Then why would he not hold a presidential election, allowing him to garner more support from the international community?
    This is the same kind of nation building mindset that continually gets us in trouble in the Middle East. We assume that because democracy works for us, it would work everywhere. Look at the history of the middle east however. Hussein was a strongman and tyrant in Iraq. We removed him and staged elections. Then Obama pulled us out with no plan to stabilize the country and look at it now. Kadaffi was a strongman in Libya. While he wasn't a US ally, he held the nation together and dealt with it's tribal eccentricities. We supported his ouster. Now Libya is a stronghold for terrorists. Then we supported the overthrow of Mubarak in Egypt. We supported the Muslim Brotherhood and replaced a leader who was friendly to the west with a group hostile to the west. Thankfully Egypt is now in control of a more moderate regime, who we are not supporting as we should in it's battle against radical Islamists. I have no idea why we oppose Assad in Syria other than he is friendly with Russia.

    The Middle east is a safer place when it's individual countries are controlled by strongmen and tyrants. The mindset on the Arab street can identify with this type of governance and honestly don't have the cultural underpinning to deal with the strife that democracy brings to tribalism and cultural divides. Leave them alone to stew in their own misery.
    "A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the majority discovers it can vote itself largess out of the public treasury." Attributed to Alexander Tytler

  3. #93
    Libertarian socialist

    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Staffs, England
    Last Seen
    12-13-17 @ 07:20 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Very Liberal
    Posts
    6,730

    Re: Assad or ISIS ?

    Quote Originally Posted by sawdust View Post
    This is the same kind of nation building mindset that continually gets us in trouble in the Middle East. We assume that because democracy works for us, it would work everywhere. Look at the history of the middle east however. Hussein was a strongman and tyrant in Iraq. We removed him and staged elections. Then Obama pulled us out with no plan to stabilize the country and look at it now. Kadaffi was a strongman in Libya. While he wasn't a US ally, he held the nation together and dealt with it's tribal eccentricities. We supported his ouster. Now Libya is a stronghold for terrorists. Then we supported the overthrow of Mubarak in Egypt. We supported the Muslim Brotherhood and replaced a leader who was friendly to the west with a group hostile to the west. Thankfully Egypt is now in control of a more moderate regime, who we are not supporting as we should in it's battle against radical Islamists. I have no idea why we oppose Assad in Syria other than he is friendly with Russia.

    The Middle east is a safer place when it's individual countries are controlled by strongmen and tyrants. The mindset on the Arab street can identify with this type of governance and honestly don't have the cultural underpinning to deal with the strife that democracy brings to tribalism and cultural divides. Leave them alone to stew in their own misery.
    Then i would refer to you to post 87. The arab world has more experience of parliamentary democracy then many realize (again see Iraq and Syria in the 50s) and even before independance they had limited parliamentary representation under the Ottoman Empire. The greater part of Western intervention in the region has involved imposing dictatorship and opposing demcracy rather than vice versa,

    As for Mohammed Morsi I think what's often underestimated is that it was popular protests against the Muslim Brotherhood (including many former supporters) that triggered the military coup. The only thing that has prevented a return to democracy is that the military has used the crisis to prolong its undue influence in the country with the help of its supporters in the West, making it very much a microcosm for the regions politics as a whole.
    Last edited by Red_Dave; 03-11-15 at 01:10 PM.

  4. #94
    Sage
    Montecresto's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Last Seen
    03-13-16 @ 11:59 PM
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    24,561

    Re: Assad or ISIS ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Red_Dave View Post
    They did hold parliamentary elections in 2012, as well as a consitutional referendum, likewise Lincon was elected in your own country during a civil war.
    Syrian parliamentary election, 2012 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Likewise the 'Al' Assad family have been in power since 1971, why has there never been a vote if they are so popular?
    Yes, they held some elections that no one considers legitimate, that far too few were able to participate in. People are trying to just survive in Syria right now.

    NATO reveals 70% of Syrians support Bashar al-Assad
    Killing one person is murder, killing 100,000 is foreign policy

  5. #95
    Libertarian socialist

    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Staffs, England
    Last Seen
    12-13-17 @ 07:20 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Very Liberal
    Posts
    6,730

    Re: Assad or ISIS ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Montecresto View Post
    Cause opinion polling the one of the most opressive states in the world is oh so reliable. Call me old fashioned but i prefer to rely on elections.

  6. #96
    Guru
    sawdust's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Last Seen
    03-04-16 @ 09:47 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Libertarian - Right
    Posts
    3,177

    Re: Assad or ISIS ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Red_Dave View Post
    Then i would refer to you to post 87. The arab world has more experience of parliamentary democracy then many realize (again see Iraq and Syria in the 50s) and even before independance they had limited parliamentary representation under the Ottoman Empire. The greater part of Western intervention in the region has involved imposing dictatorship and opposing demcracy rather than vice versa,

    As for Mohammed Morsi I think what's often underestimated is that it was popular protests against the Muslim Brotherhood (including many former supporters) that triggered the military coup. The only thing that has prevented a return to democracy is that the military has used the crisis to prolong its undue influence in the country with the help of its supporters in the West, making it very much a microcosm for the regions politics as a whole.
    The world has changed since the 50's. Radical Islamists and the creation of Israel post WW2 have galvanized the Arab street. Our efforts at nation building starting with the Shaw in Iran have all resulted in one disaster or another. My vote is to let the tyrants tyrant and let the people under them either suffer or revolt. We should not involve ourselves in their system of government.
    "A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the majority discovers it can vote itself largess out of the public treasury." Attributed to Alexander Tytler

  7. #97
    Libertarian socialist

    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Staffs, England
    Last Seen
    12-13-17 @ 07:20 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Very Liberal
    Posts
    6,730

    Re: Assad or ISIS ?

    Quote Originally Posted by sawdust View Post
    The world has changed since the 50's. Radical Islamists and the creation of Israel post WW2 have galvanized the Arab street. Our efforts at nation building starting with the Shaw in Iran have all resulted in one disaster or another. My vote is to let the tyrants tyrant and let the people under them either suffer or revolt. We should not involve ourselves in their system of government.
    Again none of those things would have happend under a government that actually represented people. I fear you are putting the cart before the horse here.

    The surreal thing about ISIS is that their idealogy is actually very new. Their 'caliphate' is a actually a lot more radical then most historical ones (including the Ottoman empire which legalized homosexuality in 1858). On the contrary Islamism came as a result of imposition of dictatorships on the region during the cold war.
    Last edited by Red_Dave; 03-11-15 at 01:21 PM.

  8. #98
    Sage
    Montecresto's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Last Seen
    03-13-16 @ 11:59 PM
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    24,561

    Re: Assad or ISIS ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Red_Dave View Post
    Cause opinion polling the one of the most opressive states in the world is oh so reliable. Call me old fashioned but i prefer to rely on elections.
    Yes, I see. And I believe that's what you folks do. Syria isn't your business. British imperialism in earnest, ended sometime ago, thankfully. Nobody holds president Assad up as any sort of model. Syria was however in far better shape when he had full control, than it is now. And this was a NATO report, not just any old poll. Decades of US/UK intervention, interference, nation building, regime change and exploitation have netted a Middle East in complete chaos. Maybe I'm old fashion, but I don't prefer chaos to containment.
    Killing one person is murder, killing 100,000 is foreign policy

  9. #99
    Guru
    sawdust's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Last Seen
    03-04-16 @ 09:47 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Libertarian - Right
    Posts
    3,177

    Re: Assad or ISIS ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Red_Dave View Post
    Again none of those things would have happend under a government that actually represented people. I fear you are putting the cart before the horse here.

    I agree with that, sort of. I'm all for power to the people but I'm not for forcing power on the people which is what our efforts at nation building have been. If they want a tyrant, let them have one. If they want to overthrow the tyrant, let them try. In the end, just as in this country, we all get the government we deserve.
    "A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the majority discovers it can vote itself largess out of the public treasury." Attributed to Alexander Tytler

  10. #100
    DEATH TO ANTARCTICA!!!
    Apocalypse's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Israel
    Last Seen
    Yesterday @ 07:22 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Centrist
    Posts
    17,207

    Re: Assad or ISIS ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Montecresto View Post
    Very difficult to hold elections, with any sense of legitimacy, when your country is torn apart in a civil war, a war against terrorism, in a country that's nearly fractured in thirds with different powers in control, and foreign fighters supported by neighboring Arab States as well as Western powers pushing for "regime change" and control of the country, don't ya think??
    Torn apart by civil war? That's weird, in the last elections 'president' al-Assad got 88.7% of the votes. So he says anyway.
    "The darkest places in hell are reserved for those who maintain their neutrality in times of moral crisis."

    Dante Alighieri

Page 10 of 13 FirstFirst ... 89101112 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •