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Where would black Americans be if their ancestors had never been enslaved?

Where would black Americans be if their ancestors had never been enslaved?

  • Total voters
    51
ThePlayDrive said:
Where would black Americans be if their ancestors had never been enslaved? Assume that all black Americans in the country today were the descendants of people who willingly immigrated to the United States under various conditions (some came b/c of war back home, others wanted a new experiences, etc.).

We obviously cannot answer this question definitively, but I would like people's thoughts on the matter regardless. Responding with "we can never really know", "there's just too many factors to come up with an answer" or similarly defeatist answers is not welcomed in this thread. This is a thought experiment, not a dissertation defense.

So, again, given the narratives you use to explain racial inequality, your perceptions of black Americans and other factors, where do you think that the black population in the United States would be if their ancestors had never been enslaved?* Would they have the same employment, education, crime and other rates as White Americans? Would they be in the same position they are in now?

*Note : I realize that not every black American in the United States is a descendant of slaves. This question addresses the ones that are. I hope that takes care of all the red herrings.
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Yes, they probably would have shared roughly the same educational and professional statistics as other races. Other immigrant groups did not have their languages, religions, cultures and names forcibly removed from them, and were allowed their own chosen way to assimilate into the American system.
 
shrubnose said:
I suppose they would be in Africa.
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That doesn't make any sense. People would have emigrated from Africa for reasons similar to other groups, like the Jews, Chinese, Italians and Irish: oppression or poverty at home and hopes of a better life.
 
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Cardinal said:
That doesn't make any sense. People would have emigrated from Africa for reasons similar to other groups, like the Jews, Chinese, Italians and Irish: oppression or poverty at home and hopes of a better life.
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No, they really wouldn't have, at least not until much, much later, and in far smaller numbers. African society prior to colonization was simply too primitive, too alien, and too isolated for immigration to the United States.

I mean... I'm sorry, but do really think groups like the freaking Zulu were as liable (or even able) to immigrate as European Italians or Jews? How exactly?
 
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Gathomas88 said:
No, they really wouldn't have, at least not until much, much later, and in far smaller numbers.

African society prior to colonization was simply too primitive, too alien, and too isolated for immigration to the United States.
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All of Africa? :confused:
 
Cardinal said:
All of Africa? :confused:
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The "black" parts of Africa? Ummm... Yes?

Hell! Even the substantially more advanced Arab populations in the North never showed any interest in immigration to the West until well after they had been colonized.
 
Cardinal said:
Yes, they probably would have shared roughly the same educational and professional statistics as other races. Other immigrant groups did not have their languages, religions, cultures and names forcibly removed from them, and were allowed their own chosen way to assimilate into the American system.
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Lovebug said:
To me, it depends on the individual drive to succeed. Had x amount of people come here under the same, or similar, circumstances, some would have made it while others would have not. We see descendents of slaves excel, while those who are not have used, and are using, the dire circumstances of others as an excuse for their lack of drive and personal failures.
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No ... not true. Blacks are disadvantaged today (comparatively) not just because of slavery, but because we whites were unapologetic racists who held blacks in deeper contempt than they did just about any other racial group for 100+ years.

Meaning Lovebug, it has nothing to do with "individual drive to succeed." Yes, Abe Lincoln enforced the emancipation proclamation. But we then had (and still have) 100+ years of white people like US State Governors (George Wallace, Benjamin Tillman, JCW Beckham), Supreme Court Justices (the 7 deciding judges on Plessy v. Ferguson, including the White League member), influential politicians (Sen. Theodore Bilbo, Sen. Jeter Pritchard, leader of the lilly-white movement), religious leaders, military leaders, entertainers, journalists, and on and on and on.

All of those white people are people who dedicated their lives to annihilating any progress made by any black person in America.

If blacks had never been enslaved, but had still come to American, they would have still had to deal with white racists. People who held the highest, most influential positions in America and were unapologetic, vile racists. Honestly? Chris Rock had it right. The Civil Right's movement had little to do with black progress, and a whole hell of a lot more to do with white progress.
 
ThePlayDrive said:
Where would black Americans be if their ancestors had never been enslaved? Assume that all black Americans in the country today were the descendants of people who willingly immigrated to the United States under various conditions (some came b/c of war back home, others wanted a new experiences, etc.).

We obviously cannot answer this question definitively, but I would like people's thoughts on the matter regardless. Responding with "we can never really know", "there's just too many factors to come up with an answer" or similarly defeatist answers is not welcomed in this thread. This is a thought experiment, not a dissertation defense.

So, again, given the narratives you use to explain racial inequality, your perceptions of black Americans and other factors, where do you think that the black population in the United States would be if their ancestors had never been enslaved?* Would they have the same employment, education, crime and other rates as White Americans? Would they be in the same position they are in now?

*Note : I realize that not every black American in the United States is a descendant of slaves. This question addresses the ones that are. I hope that takes care of all the red herrings.
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Yes, clearly the second poll response -- they would have been better off -- is the obvious correct answer.

Captured and forced to become strangers in a strange land against their will and in terrible fear, beaten, murdered, forced to work long hours, sometimes chained up ..

.. Then have an entire region scapegoat and hate them for that region's economic decline ..

.. Have them endure hatred, exploited, feared because they'll work for peanuts just to survive thus taking jobs away from others who would usually get paid more, subjected to economic discrimination, poverty, etc., etc. for decades, have to jump through way more hoops than others just to begin to get ahead ...

Now, instead, imagine people, little by little, choosing to come here, not en masse as slaves, but as individuals, seek employment, never blamed for a region's economic demise or the deaths of those who freed them, free to seek out and find friends, work hard and get rewarded for their work paid the same as anyone, and coming here is such small amounts each year they don't contribute to over-population ...

Major positive attitude difference, for themselves, and for others who know them as well as those who don't, not to mention major positive economic difference too.

Without question the second answer in the poll is accurate.

Sure, there would be some here who, because of the difference in color of their skin and equatorial appearance from themselves, would be challenged by their degree of early childhood inculcated fear of that which is different.

But that wouldn't at all come even close to creating the horrors for anyone or en masse as the way it actually happened.
 
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ThePlayDrive said:
Where would black Americans be if their ancestors had never been enslaved? Assume that all black Americans in the country today were the descendants of people who willingly immigrated to the United States under various conditions (some came b/c of war back home, others wanted a new experiences, etc.).

We obviously cannot answer this question definitively, but I would like people's thoughts on the matter regardless. Responding with "we can never really know", "there's just too many factors to come up with an answer" or similarly defeatist answers is not welcomed in this thread. This is a thought experiment, not a dissertation defense.

So, again, given the narratives you use to explain racial inequality, your perceptions of black Americans and other factors, where do you think that the black population in the United States would be if their ancestors had never been enslaved?* Would they have the same employment, education, crime and other rates as White Americans? Would they be in the same position they are in now?

*Note : I realize that not every black American in the United States is a descendant of slaves. This question addresses the ones that are. I hope that takes care of all the red herrings.
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How are they living in the other places they migrated to?

They would have been treated in this country with the same suspicion and problems as many other groups that migrated here. I'm of Irish descent (half) and my great grandparents were discriminated against. And anyone in this country can get an education or a job so if they had emigrated here as opposed to being enslaved, that would be up to them where they are today. Where is any other group today?
 
brothern said:
No ... not true. Blacks are disadvantaged today (comparatively) not just because of slavery, but because we whites were unapologetic racists who held blacks in deeper contempt than they did just about any other racial group for 100+ years.

Meaning Lovebug, it has nothing to do with "individual drive to succeed." Yes, Abe Lincoln enforced the emancipation proclamation. But we then had (and still have) 100+ years of white people like US State Governors (George Wallace, Benjamin Tillman, JCW Beckham), Supreme Court Justices (the 7 deciding judges on Plessy v. Ferguson, including the White League member), influential politicians (Sen. Theodore Bilbo, Sen. Jeter Pritchard, leader of the lilly-white movement), religious leaders, military leaders, entertainers, journalists, and on and on and on.

All of those white people are people who dedicated their lives to annihilating any progress made by any black person in America.

If blacks had never been enslaved, but had still come to American, they would have still had to deal with white racists. People who held the highest, most influential positions in America and were unapologetic, vile racists. Honestly? Chris Rock had it right. The Civil Right's movement had little to do with black progress, and a whole hell of a lot more to do with white progress.
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Excuse me for laughing. Please explain to me then how some blacks, as mentioned prior, from the neighborhoods and comparable circumstances, make it by pulling themselves up and out, while others use their circumstance as an excuse.
Why is it that an immigrant from the Ukraine or Vietnam or China, coming here with only a few $ in their pockets, work their arses off and make something of themselves? Are they more privileged than any American citizen? Do they perhaps work hard, safe their money and invest to move forward, more often than not without any Gov assistance?
Please don't cry me a river. I have been there and done that and know first hand what is possible. I also know that it is so much easier to sit at home, text a bit and bitch about what others owe you.
 
Cardinal said:
That doesn't make any sense.
People would have emigrated from Africa
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for reasons similar to other groups, like the Jews, Chinese, Italians and Irish: oppression or poverty at home and hopes of a better life.
Click to expand...



What would they have used for transportation? :roll:

Fill us in.




:lamo
 
Lovebug said:
brothern said:
No ... not true. Blacks are disadvantaged today (comparatively) not just because of slavery, but because we whites were unapologetic racists who held blacks in deeper contempt than they did just about any other racial group for 100+ years.

Meaning Lovebug, it has nothing to do with "individual drive to succeed." Yes, Abe Lincoln enforced the emancipation proclamation. But we then had (and still have) 100+ years of white people like US State Governors (George Wallace, Benjamin Tillman, JCW Beckham), Supreme Court Justices (the 7 deciding judges on Plessy v. Ferguson, including the White League member), influential politicians (Sen. Theodore Bilbo, Sen. Jeter Pritchard, leader of the lilly-white movement), religious leaders, military leaders, entertainers, journalists, and on and on and on.

All of those white people are people who dedicated their lives to annihilating any progress made by any black person in America.

If blacks had never been enslaved, but had still come to American, they would have still had to deal with white racists. People who held the highest, most influential positions in America and were unapologetic, vile racists. Honestly? Chris Rock had it right. The Civil Right's movement had little to do with black progress, and a whole hell of a lot more to do with white progress.
Click to expand...
Excuse me for laughing. Please explain to me then how some blacks, as mentioned prior, from the neighborhoods and comparable circumstances, make it by pulling themselves up and out, while others use their circumstance as an excuse.
Why is it that an immigrant from the Ukraine or Vietnam or China, coming here with only a few $ in their pockets, work their arses off and make something of themselves? Are they more privileged than any American citizen? Do they perhaps work hard, safe their money and invest to move forward, more often than not without any Gov assistance?
Please don't cry me a river. I have been there and done that and know first hand what is possible. I also know that it is so much easier to sit at home, text a bit and bitch about what others owe you.
Click to expand...
You're going to attack me as "entitled"? Love - I'm white, was raised by an upper-middle class family and I earn almost double what the median American makes. And I'm just out of college.

So, no dear. Sticking up for black people, who have long been the victims of institutionalized racism, doesn't make me entitled, but it certainly says something about YOUR attitudes towards racial minorities.

I really don't find your "racial beliefs" funny at all. I'm not laughing at your HAR-HAR "black people are lazy" joke.
 
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brothern said:
No ... not true. Blacks are disadvantaged today (comparatively) not just because of slavery, but because we whites were unapologetic racists who held blacks in deeper contempt than they did just about any other racial group for 100+ years.

Meaning Lovebug, it has nothing to do with "individual drive to succeed." Yes, Abe Lincoln enforced the emancipation proclamation. But we then had (and still have) 100+ years of white people like US State Governors (George Wallace, Benjamin Tillman, JCW Beckham), Supreme Court Justices (the 7 deciding judges on Plessy v. Ferguson, including the White League member), influential politicians (Sen. Theodore Bilbo, Sen. Jeter Pritchard, leader of the lilly-white movement), religious leaders, military leaders, entertainers, journalists, and on and on and on.

All of those white people are people who dedicated their lives to annihilating any progress made by any black person in America.

If blacks had never been enslaved, but had still come to American, they would have still had to deal with white racists. People who held the highest, most influential positions in America and were unapologetic, vile racists. Honestly? Chris Rock had it right. The Civil Right's movement had little to do with black progress, and a whole hell of a lot more to do with white progress.
Click to expand...

For hundreds if not thousands of years, men were unapologetic sexists who believed women had no place in the working world, couldn't make financial decisions, couldn't vote, couldn't own land, and were second class citizens. That wasn't even a cultural thing. There are a lot of people (males) who hold those beliefs today. And women rose above it. Those that wanted to, anyway.

There are people all over this country who look down on others. That will never change. A black man can get elected President of the United States now. So the racists that still exist aren't winning, are they?
 
tres borrachos said:
For hundreds if not thousands of years, men were unapologetic sexists who believed women had no place in the working world, couldn't make financial decisions, couldn't vote, couldn't own land, and were second class citizens. That wasn't even a cultural thing. There are a lot of people (males) who hold those beliefs today. And women rose above it. Those that wanted to, anyway.

There are people all over this country who look down on others. That will never change. A black man can get elected President of the United States now. So the racists that still exist aren't winning, are they?
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Excellent post!

Note, that we see no such threads as this about women.....

Note also that we hear little in the way of "we are still held down" or what if there had been no...."

And gays, I recall when bars would have 'doormen' to make sure gay men did not get in. Not anymore, and we hear no attitude about "ancestors"

When both sides stop pushing everyone's buttons as with this thread, race will stop being an issue that consumes a nation.

I doubt blacks will be electable as president anytime soon after Obama
 
Fearandloathing said:
Excellent post!

Note, that we see no such threads as this about women.....

Note also that we hear little in the way of "we are still held down" or what if there had been no...."

And gays, I recall when bars would have 'doormen' to make sure gay men did not get in. Not anymore, and we hear no attitude about "ancestors"

When both sides stop pushing everyone's buttons as with this thread, race will stop being an issue that consumes a nation.

I doubt blacks will be electable as president anytime soon after Obama
Click to expand...

My great grandfather, who was an Irish immigrant into Jersey City, had his truck (business - he shipped shoes) taken away from him because he was Irish and nobody would help him. It was a terrible thing. But he rose above it. I'm 3 generations away from that. And I could either complain about how my ancestor was treated, or make my own way in the world.

My maiden name is a German name. In the 1940s my father was turned away from 3 hotels in Lake George NY because the owners assumed he was Jewish (our name could also be Jewish). And my grandfather's dachshund was kidnapped and killed in the 1940s, and when they were young men in Massachusetts, my father and uncle were tortures, teased, and beaten up, all because they assumed my grandfather was a Nazi (my family was assumed to be both sides). It was terrible, but we learn from it and become our own people.
 
tres borrachos said:
For hundreds if not thousands of years, men were unapologetic sexists who believed women had no place in the working world, couldn't make financial decisions, couldn't vote, couldn't own land, and were second class citizens. That wasn't even a cultural thing. There are a lot of people (males) who hold those beliefs today. And women rose above it. Those that wanted to, anyway.

There are people all over this country who look down on others. That will never change. A black man can get elected President of the United States now. So the racists that still exist aren't winning, are they?
Click to expand...
There's been qualified blacks politicians for decades now. Even some who've run for president. As well as very qualified female politicians, who've also run for president.

Yet it wasn't until 2008 that whites and males tolerated voting for black and female presidential candidates to a large degree. Even still, comparative analysis to past elections showed that Obama saw depressed turn-outs and vote totals in white areas.

So I fail to see how that's an accomplishment for blacks or women, rather than the further demonstration of the closed-mindedness of whites and males.
 
tres borrachos said:
For hundreds if not thousands of years, men were unapologetic sexists who believed women had no place in the working world, couldn't make financial decisions, couldn't vote, couldn't own land, and were second class citizens. That wasn't even a cultural thing. There are a lot of people (males) who hold those beliefs today. And women rose above it. Those that wanted to, anyway.

There are people all over this country who look down on others. That will never change. A black man can get elected President of the United States now. So the racists that still exist aren't winning, are they?
Click to expand...

Great post. We can come up with a long list, and it won't be very difficult.
 
tres borrachos said:
My great grandfather, who was an Irish immigrant into Jersey City, had his truck (business - he shipped shoes) taken away from him because he was Irish and nobody would help him. It was a terrible thing. But he rose above it. I'm 3 generations away from that. And I could either complain about how my ancestor was treated, or make my own way in the world.

My maiden name is a German name. In the 1940s my father was turned away from 3 hotels in Lake George NY because the owners assumed he was Jewish (our name could also be Jewish). And my grandfather's dachshund was kidnapped and killed in the 1940s, and when they were young men in Massachusetts, my father and uncle were tortures, teased, and beaten up, all because they assumed my grandfather was a Nazi (my family was assumed to be both sides). It was terrible, but we learn from it and become our own people.
Click to expand...



I am of half Polish descent. Among my fondest memories is sitting with my aunt who had been a teen slave laborer in Germany during the war. And she would laugh as she told us how they never tied off the buttons on the German uniforms they had to sew causing soldiers pants to fall down. I have read extensively about the Polish resistance who lived in the wilderness and fought Panzers with Molotov cocktails; and I have been to Poland behind the Iron Curtain where Russians patrolled the streets.

The Polish people ave been conquered and enslaved, their lands chopped up and partitioned to whoever wanted, from the Swedes, to the French, to Germany and the Russians.

As a child we were forbidden to speak Polish outside the home, lest anyone know we were Polish, and of course Polish jokes are not "racist" so everyone tells them. Imagine if someone opened with "did you hear about the Negro who...?

And yet I don't go nuts every time I see a Mercedes.

I don't buy the generation thing. I learned the Polish people have NOTHING to be ashamed of, have lived under oppression more years than the US has been the US.....and you never hear a Pollock saying..."I never had a chance"

Usually because they're getting rich fixing your car
 
Lovebug said:
Excuse me for laughing. Please explain to me then how some blacks, as mentioned prior, from the neighborhoods and comparable circumstances, make it by pulling themselves up and out, while others use their circumstance as an excuse.
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Your using exceptions to explain the rule. This is illogical. Using "some black people" as evidence that "drive" is the issue for black people is just as illogical as using rags to riches stories as evidence that "drive" is the issue for poor people.

Do they perhaps work hard, safe their money and invest to move forward, more often than not without any Gov assistance?
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I don't know, but since you seem to think that this is the case, would you provide some research that shows how the immigrants you speak of compare to the black Americans with regard to working hard, saving money and investing it without government assistance? I know you wouldn't just throw out that hypothesis unless you have some data to back it up.

Please don't cry me a river.
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I've noticed this sentiment a lot among people who are ignorant about the issues facing black Americans. You guys seem to think that those of us who know what we're talking about are somehow trying to garner your sympathy. Speaking for myself, I'm just trying to educate you. If you reject the education, I move on. You'll only accept it when you're ready.
 
brothern said:
There's been qualified blacks politicians for decades now. Even some who've run for president. As well as very qualified female politicians, who've also run for president.

Yet it wasn't until 2008 that whites and males tolerated voting for black and female presidential candidates to a large degree. Even still, comparative analysis to past elections showed that Obama saw depressed turn-outs and vote totals in white areas.

So I fail to see how that's an accomplishment for blacks or women, rather than the further demonstration of the closed-mindedness of whites and males.
Click to expand...

Not only did a black man run for President, he won - twice. So again, what do the racists win by being racist? In this country a black man can rise to the most powerful position in this country.
 
Gathomas88 said:
The "black" parts of Africa? Ummm... Yes?

Hell! Even the substantially more advanced Arab populations in the North never showed any interest in immigration to the West until well after they had been colonized.
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shrubnose said:
What would they have used for transportation? :roll:

Fill us in.

:lamo
Click to expand...

Okay, you know what? I don't know or even particularly care by what mechanics Africans could or couldn't have made it to America. My only point was that if they had come here voluntarily it would have had a very different outcome. Is that really debatable?

brothern said:
No ... not true. Blacks are disadvantaged today (comparatively) not just because of slavery, but because we whites were unapologetic racists who held blacks in deeper contempt than they did just about any other racial group for 100+ years.

Meaning Lovebug, it has nothing to do with "individual drive to succeed." Yes, Abe Lincoln enforced the emancipation proclamation. But we then had (and still have) 100+ years of white people like US State Governors (George Wallace, Benjamin Tillman, JCW Beckham), Supreme Court Justices (the 7 deciding judges on Plessy v. Ferguson, including the White League member), influential politicians (Sen. Theodore Bilbo, Sen. Jeter Pritchard, leader of the lilly-white movement), religious leaders, military leaders, entertainers, journalists, and on and on and on.

All of those white people are people who dedicated their lives to annihilating any progress made by any black person in America.

If blacks had never been enslaved, but had still come to American, they would have still had to deal with white racists. People who held the highest, most influential positions in America and were unapologetic, vile racists. Honestly? Chris Rock had it right. The Civil Right's movement had little to do with black progress, and a whole hell of a lot more to do with white progress.
Click to expand...

I took the spirit of the OP to be that in this hypothetical parallel history, blacks faced roughly the same levels of racism and contempt as other immigrant groups coming into the United States.
 
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ThePlayDrive said:
Where would black Americans be if their ancestors had never been enslaved? Assume that all black Americans in the country today were the descendants of people who willingly immigrated to the United States under various conditions (some came b/c of war back home, others wanted a new experiences, etc.).

We obviously cannot answer this question definitively, but I would like people's thoughts on the matter regardless. Responding with "we can never really know", "there's just too many factors to come up with an answer" or similarly defeatist answers is not welcomed in this thread. This is a thought experiment, not a dissertation defense.

So, again, given the narratives you use to explain racial inequality, your perceptions of black Americans and other factors, where do you think that the black population in the United States would be if their ancestors had never been enslaved?* Would they have the same employment, education, crime and other rates as White Americans? Would they be in the same position they are in now?

*Note : I realize that not every black American in the United States is a descendant of slaves. This question addresses the ones that are. I hope that takes care of all the red herrings.
Click to expand...

All things being equal but not separate, I believe Black Americans would have progressed along very similar lines as Whites. People have to remember that the only true barrier that has hampered progress for Blacks in America has been generational racial bias. Remove this barrier from the very beginning when Blacks first started migrating to the new colonies over 239 years ago and it's clear that Blacks would have progressed along very similar lines as Whites especially when you consider that Blacks were enterprising and inventors as well as Whites despite the rigors of slavery, sharecropping or Jim Crow each lending to the stagnation and erosion (if not the corrosion) of Black society.
 
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The question presumes kind of an "anti-rapture", where people just magically pop up out of nowhere. There would have been some migration in the ensuing years without slavery, but not nearly as much, so the black population would be much smaller than it is now.

They would actually, probably, be better off, overall, partly because of the smaller numbers. Plus, the stigma of 'subhuman' wouldn't be there.
 
Let me help you with this...

radcen said:
The question presumes kind of an "anti-rapture", where people just magically pop up out of nowhere. There would have been some migration in the ensuing years without slavery, but not nearly as much, so the black population would be much smaller than it is now.

They would actually, probably, be better off, overall, partly because of the smaller numbers. Plus, the stigma of 'sub-human' wouldn't have been there.
Click to expand...

You're welcome. :mrgreen:
 
Some would have different histories, likely in Africa, while many would not exist at all. While the blame for black slavery here often falls squarely on the shoulders of the white colonists, the fact is that black slaves were available to them because of tribal wars in Africa. The slaves brought here were the losers of the tribal wars. They sold the men and children and kept the women (at least some of them) as the spoils of war. So had there not been a market, they would likely have been killed.
 
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