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Where would black Americans be if their ancestors had never been enslaved?

Where would black Americans be if their ancestors had never been enslaved?

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ModerateGOP said:
Thank you for making this thread! I am actually starting to write a science-fiction novel based on this very idea! So it will give me a lot to work with. The general idea I have is, that the majority of Africans stayed in Africa. They built up their defenses and civilized the continent. This led to a booming population and whites becoming a minority. The Africans are still quite totalitarian but have remained strictly isolationists because they are proud of their culture and don't feel the need to mess with others. Since the West is limited due to the slave trade never existing, and dominated by Chinese, French, and Irish. It is very scared of Africa's power. There is a twist in my book where the North is bombed and radiation makes it unlivable from Northern Virginia upwards. During the second World War, which still happens in their past, but slightly different. So the South is now called the United Southern States and are actually quite friendly with the Africans because Africans don't like dealing with Europe anymore than the South does. Though no African in their right minds would venture far from their shores and would not step foot into America. Racism is rampant throughout the world and whites are called pinkskins!

I'm still working out the kinks but it's going somewhere, and I don't think anything like this has been published yet. If anybody knows of any novels like this or about this topic. I would love to check it out. I hope everyone likes my idea. Will be keeping an eye on this thread.
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That's a really cool idea for a novel and it sounds like an interesting read. I wish you the best of luck in your writing endeavors!
 
Goshin said:
Well, most of them would hypothetically be living in Africa, which for most part means they'd be worse off in most ways that matter.
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Without the influence of the slave trade, would they be worse off? Without the trade, the United States might not have fared as well since slavery gave it the free the labor it needed to acquire wealth which means it wouldn't be as dominant as it is today and, as such, Africa might not be as bad by comparison as it is today.
 
ThePlayDrive said:
Without the influence of the slave trade, would they be worse off? Without the trade, the United States might not have fared as well since slavery gave it the free the labor it needed to acquire wealth which means it wouldn't be as dominant as it is today and, as such, Africa might not be as bad by comparison as it is today.
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Pure speculation, with no evidence to back it up, based on the assumption that more for one means less for another, which is patently untrue on the scale of global economies.
 
ThePlayDrive said:
Without the influence of the slave trade, would they be worse off? Without the trade, the United States might not have fared as well since slavery gave it the free the labor it needed to acquire wealth which means it wouldn't be as dominant as it is today and, as such, Africa might not be as bad by comparison as it is today.
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To expand on this, most US industrial development took place in the North where there was no institution of slavery. Most westward expansion was fueled by cheap Chinese and Irish immigrant labor, and much of it occurred after 1865.

Africa, however, has pretty much always been a mess on the whole, and remains so today even though Africa is almost entirely run by Africans now. There is no reason to assume that Africa would have developed an advanced culture on its own.
 
Well since the country was build on cotton, there would be a need for someone to do the work. Can't see Native Americans doing that kind of work, so they would be treated just the same. If there was no slave trade, some group of people would have done it. I guess they would have been treated like all immigrants coming to this country. Be it Irish, Chinese, or black.

I would liken them to Mexican's that come here today & pick fruit. Yes there would be racism, but not the kind of racism today between blacks & whites. So they would not be much better off than they are now.
 
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Goshin said:
Pure speculation, with no evidence to back it up, based on the assumption that more for one means less for another, which is patently untrue on the scale of global economies.
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That's not "pure speculation". The United States' wealth was heavily influenced by its use of slaves. This is a documented fact, but also a conclusion that can be logically drawn given that free labor yields more profits than paid labor. Given this, if the United States had not had slaves, then it's logical to conclude that it would not have been as wealthy and thus not as powerful today as it is today.
 
Goshin said:
To expand on this, most US industrial development took place in the North where there was no institution of slavery. Most westward expansion was fueled by cheap Chinese and Irish immigrant labor, and much of it occurred after 1865.
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Cotton was the largest American export during slavery, constituting a significant portion of America's wealth and growth as a superpower. The profitability of that export and, in turn, the wealth of the United States, relied on the free labor of slaves.

Africa, however, has pretty much always been a mess on the whole, and remains so today even though Africa is almost entirely run by Africans now.
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You have a source that "Africa has pretty much always been a mess" more so than Europe, Asia and the rest of the world?
 
ThePlayDrive said:
That's not "pure speculation". The United States' wealth was heavily influenced by its use of slaves. This is a documented fact, but also a conclusion that can be logically drawn given that free labor yields more profits than paid labor. Given this, if the United States had not had slaves, then it's logical to conclude that it would not have been as wealthy and thus not as powerful today as it is today.
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Brazil, Cuba, North africa had slaves, they aren't wealthy.
 
Goshin said:
Pure speculation, with no evidence to back it up, based on the assumption that more for one means less for another, which is patently untrue on the scale of global economies.
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Much like every serious reply to this thread, including yours.

Question is such a large hypothetical that it's impossible to even contemplate an answer. If a butterfly flapping it's wings can cause a hurricane, then the wiping of slavery from the history books could literally mean anything.
 
How the hell should I - or anyone else - know?
 
Goshin said:
-- Africa, however, has pretty much always been a mess on the whole, and remains so today even though Africa is almost entirely run by Africans now. There is no reason to assume that Africa would have developed an advanced culture on its own.
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I'm surprised at this.

There is lots of evidence of cities, kingdoms and cultures which were deliberately destroyed when western explorers and military convoys arrived. Dar es Salaam is an old city and it like other ports in what is now Mozambique were destroyed and buildings flattened by Portuguese men-o-war. There are records of traders going back as far as the 12th century going to the old civilisation of Great Zimbabwe - there used to be a trade route which was eventually killed off by the Portuguese destruction of ports and trading centres on the coast.

Destroy the history and physical civilisation and you end with the popular belief Africa has always been a mess. If you look however, you find some interesting ancient buildings, castles and cities which show otherwise.

Chinese pottery has been found in the ruins of great Zimbabwe and other empires - trade that goes earlier beyond white travelers who might be given the credit for introducing it
 
Infinite Chaos said:
I'm surprised at this.

There is lots of evidence of cities, kingdoms and cultures which were deliberately destroyed when western explorers and military convoys arrived. Dar es Salaam is an old city and it like other ports in what is now Mozambique were destroyed and buildings flattened by Portuguese men-o-war. There are records of traders going back as far as the 12th century going to the old civilisation of Great Zimbabwe - there used to be a trade route which was eventually killed off by the Portuguese destruction of ports and trading centres on the coast.

Destroy the history and physical civilisation and you end with the popular belief Africa has always been a mess. If you look however, you find some interesting ancient buildings, castles and cities which show otherwise.

Chinese pottery has been found in the ruins of great Zimbabwe and other empires - trade that goes earlier beyond white travelers who might be given the credit for introducing it
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Yeah, this is why I asked Goshin for a source. The belief that "Africa has always been a mess" is a product of white supremacist history lessons that have been dominant in American history. The accomplishments of African civilizations were pretty much erased from history taught in Americans schools until Carter G. Woodson among others demanded that Black history become part of the curriculum. Africa's history is just as rich as everyone else's history. It genuinely saddens me that many people still don't know that.
 
ThePlayDrive said:
That's not "pure speculation". The United States' wealth was heavily influenced by its use of slaves. This is a documented fact, but also a conclusion that can be logically drawn given that free labor yields more profits than paid labor. Given this, if the United States had not had slaves, then it's logical to conclude that it would not have been as wealthy and thus not as powerful today as it is today.
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Nope. Well known fact that slave labor produces far less surplus than free labor. Slaves don't work any harder than they are made to, as they have little incentive.

The South at the time of the Civil War was almost entirely lacking in industry, factories, etc... except cotton. Except for the elite few, most of the southerners of the time were in deep poverty. The South remained all but destitute for a generation afterwards. The North was the driving force behind the Westward expansion and the industrialization of the country.
 
ThePlayDrive said:
Yeah, this is why I asked Goshin for a source. The belief that "Africa has always been a mess" is a product of white supremacist history lessons that have been dominant in American history. The accomplishments of African civilizations were pretty much erased from history taught in Americans schools until Carter G. Woodson among others demanded that Black history become part of the curriculum. Africa's history is just as rich as everyone else's history. It genuinely saddens me that many people still don't know that.
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What if is all very well and good, but Africa as it IS today is largely a terrible mess.


In the OP, I don't recall you specifying "NO Western involvement in Africa" as part of our flight of fancy here.
 
ThePlayDrive said:
Where would black Americans be if their ancestors had never been enslaved? Assume that all black Americans in the country today were the descendants of people who willingly immigrated to the United States under various conditions (some came b/c of war back home, others wanted a new experiences, etc.).

We obviously cannot answer this question definitively, but I would like people's thoughts on the matter regardless. Responding with "we can never really know", "there's just too many factors to come up with an answer" or similarly defeatist answers is not welcomed in this thread. This is a thought experiment, not a dissertation defense.

So, again, given the narratives you use to explain racial inequality, your perceptions of black Americans and other factors, where do you think that the black population in the United States would be if their ancestors had never been enslaved?* Would they have the same employment, education, crime and other rates as White Americans? Would they be in the same position they are in now?

*Note : I realize that not every black American in the United States is a descendant of slaves. This question addresses the ones that are. I hope that takes care of all the red herrings.
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The blacks who were originally sold into slavery in the US were already in slavery somewhere else. Slavery, as repugnant as it is was not invented in the US. If not for slavery starting out as an accepted practice in the US, blacks would have emigrated here for a better life like most other legal immigrants. There would likely be a lot less poverty in the black community.
 
Infinite Chaos said:
I'm surprised at this.

There is lots of evidence of cities, kingdoms and cultures which were deliberately destroyed when western explorers and military convoys arrived. Dar es Salaam is an old city and it like other ports in what is now Mozambique were destroyed and buildings flattened by Portuguese men-o-war. There are records of traders going back as far as the 12th century going to the old civilisation of Great Zimbabwe - there used to be a trade route which was eventually killed off by the Portuguese destruction of ports and trading centres on the coast.

Destroy the history and physical civilisation and you end with the popular belief Africa has always been a mess. If you look however, you find some interesting ancient buildings, castles and cities which show otherwise.

Chinese pottery has been found in the ruins of great Zimbabwe and other empires - trade that goes earlier beyond white travelers who might be given the credit for introducing it
Click to expand...

Na its always been a mess. Few written languages, some places hadn't discovered the wheel until it was introduced there in the 19th century. Many still believe things like ebola are caused by witchcraft, some think chants make them bulletproof, and some think raping a baby cures aids.

I'd call it a mess.
 
The overwhelming majority of them wouldn't exist. A specific sperm had to come together with a specific egg at a specific time for YOU to be produced. Change even a small thing in history and poof, you don't exist. Now change something HUGE like the slave trade, and hell, many white people today probably wouldn't exist. It would be a whole other set of people.

Had it not been for the Holocaust I personally wouldn't exist. That doesn't make the Holocaust a positive.
 
US Conservative said:
Na its always been a mess. Few written languages, some places hadn't discovered the wheel until it was introduced there in the 19th century. Many still believe things like ebola are caused by witchcraft, some think chants make them bulletproof, and some think raping a baby cures aids.

I'd call it a mess.
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You need to provide a source for everything in this post ^.

Please note that there are crazy people in every race, but you are suggesting that these practices existed on a large scale. - If any of them existed at all, that is.
 
ModerateGOP said:
Thank you for making this thread! I am actually starting to write a science-fiction novel based on this very idea! So it will give me a lot to work with. The general idea I have is, that the majority of Africans stayed in Africa. They built up their defenses and civilized the continent. This led to a booming population and whites becoming a minority. The Africans are still quite totalitarian but have remained strictly isolationists because they are proud of their culture and don't feel the need to mess with others. Since the West is limited due to the slave trade never existing, and dominated by Chinese, French, and Irish. It is very scared of Africa's power. There is a twist in my book where the North is bombed and radiation makes it unlivable from Northern Virginia upwards. During the second World War, which still happens in their past, but slightly different. So the South is now called the United Southern States and are actually quite friendly with the Africans because Africans don't like dealing with Europe anymore than the South does. Though no African in their right minds would venture far from their shores and would not step foot into America. Racism is rampant throughout the world and whites are called pinkskins!

I'm still working out the kinks but it's going somewhere, and I don't think anything like this has been published yet. If anybody knows of any novels like this or about this topic. I would love to check it out. I hope everyone likes my idea. Will be keeping an eye on this thread.
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Yuo need to come up with a way to kill disease spreading insects or your novel will be unbelievable.
 
Zinthaniel said:
You need to provide a source for everything in this post ^.

Please note that there are crazy people in every race, but you are suggesting that these practices existed on a large scale. - If any of them existed at all, that is.
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These are facts. Readily obtainable. If you dont know them, I suggest you spend some time on google and get educated.
And on the large scale-its a mess-its africa.

And spare me the liberal compulsion to say there are crazy people everywhere-we are talking about africa.

The wheel was barely used, with the exception of Ethiopia and Somalia, in Sub-Saharan Africa well into the 19th century but this changed with the arrival of the Europeans.[12][13]
Wheel - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Writing systems of Africa - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Virgin cleansing myth - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Do You Believe In African Bullet Proof? - Culture (1) - Nigeria

West Africans Blame Ebola Outbreak on Witchcraft – Kenyans Flee Border With Uganda | The Gateway Pundit

And just the other day on liveleak I saw a pig in africa eating a stillborn baby, and dragging it through the streets.

Its probably the most backwards place on earth.
 
ModerateGOP said:
Why would you say that?
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Why would I say that the number one killer on the continent that foiled all efforts in most areas at European colnialism would need to be eradicated before they could have a thriving post-modern civilization? :thinking




:shrug:
 
Declan said:
Yuo need to come up with a way to kill disease spreading insects or your novel will be unbelievable.
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Chemicals that were effective against malaria in africa were sharply curtailed because of American leftists, its estimated up to 20 million have died. They still lose over a million a year there.
 
Declan said:
Why would I say that the number one killer on the continent that foiled all efforts in most areas at European colnialism would need to be eradicated before they could have a thriving post-modern civilization? :thinking

:shrug:
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Well that's easily done anyway, It has scifi elements. Maybe the disease reverses itself or maybe it somehow effects the West instead of Africa. It may be a blurb or something in there but not central to the story.
 
US Conservative said:
These are facts. Readily obtainable. If you dont know them, I suggest you spend some time on google and get educated.
And on the large scale-its a mess-its africa.

And spare me the liberal compulsion to say there are crazy people everywhere-we are talking about africa.
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Nothing you said is backed by any of your links.

The wheel was barely used, with the exception of Ethiopia and Somalia, in Sub-Saharan Africa well into the 19th century but this changed with the arrival of the Europeans.[12][13]
Wheel - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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Right, barely used - is not synonymous with not discovered.

Remember that's what you said, Did you forget -

US Conservative said:
some places hadn't discovered the wheel until it was introduced there in the 19th century.
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Quite the contrary, barely used - means that it was used but barely. Is English your first language?

So that's one BS claim you made dismissed.

Writing systems of Africa - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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What from your initial posts does this link prove?
Virgin cleansing myth - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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From your own source.

Accounts of the belief are reported from sub-Saharan Africa, Asia, Europe and the Americas
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However, it is unknown exactly how common the myth is and to what degree rapes happen because of the belief in it.
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So we have established that the only thing you are good at is mining for links that you think support your claims, but actually don't.

How intriguing.

Do You Believe In African Bullet Proof? - Culture (1) - Nigeria
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A forum? That's your source?
This is the equivalent of me quoting from stormfront to prove that all whites are disgruntled angry racists.

Though I speculate that you have an account on that site so I doubt you would have any qualms with me quoting from there.
West Africans Blame Ebola Outbreak on Witchcraft – Kenyans Flee Border With Uganda | The Gateway Pundit
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From your own source:

SOME locals believe the recent Ebola deaths were caused by witchcraft.
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I'm just loving your dishonesty. Are you seriously trying to implicate that the choices made by a few in one country - not even the entire country, somehow reflect that of an entire continent?

Jesus Christ. Lol That's some serious fallacy.
And just the other day on liveleak I saw a pig in africa eating a stillborn baby, and dragging it through the streets.
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Ok. What's your point? You made the claim that the Entire continent of Africa has always been a mess and then in an attempt to desperately try to substantiate that ridiculous claim you offered nothing but isolated Incidences. Nothing that would suggest that Africa is comprised of witch craft, baby raping, Neanderthals like you are trying to insist.

I'm sorry - you're going to have to try harder than that.
Its probably the most backwards place on earth.
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you still have not proven this claim.
 
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