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Where would black Americans be if their ancestors had never been enslaved?

Where would black Americans be if their ancestors had never been enslaved?


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ThePlayDrive

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Where would black Americans be if their ancestors had never been enslaved? Assume that all black Americans in the country today were the descendants of people who willingly immigrated to the United States under various conditions (some came b/c of war back home, others wanted a new experiences, etc.).

We obviously cannot answer this question definitively, but I would like people's thoughts on the matter regardless. Responding with "we can never really know", "there's just too many factors to come up with an answer" or similarly defeatist answers is not welcomed in this thread. This is a thought experiment, not a dissertation defense.

So, again, given the narratives you use to explain racial inequality, your perceptions of black Americans and other factors, where do you think that the black population in the United States would be if their ancestors had never been enslaved?* Would they have the same employment, education, crime and other rates as White Americans? Would they be in the same position they are in now?

*Note : I realize that not every black American in the United States is a descendant of slaves. This question addresses the ones that are. I hope that takes care of all the red herrings.
 
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Change Other to "Still in Africa" and you would have a winner.
 
Change Other to "Still in Africa" and you would have a winner.
Clever? But from the OP : "Assume that all black Americans in the country today were the descendants of people who willingly immigrated to the United States under various conditions (some came b/c of war back home, others wanted a new experiences, etc.)."
 
Where would black Americans be if their ancestors had never been enslaved?
Assume that all black Americans in the country today were the descendants of people who willingly immigrated to the United States under various conditions (some came b/c of war back home, others wanted a new experiences, etc.).

We obviously cannot answer this question definitively, but I would like people's thoughts on the matter regardless. Responding with "we can never really know", "there's just too many factors to come up with an answer" or similarly defeatist answers is not welcomed in this thread. This is a thought experiment, not a dissertation defense.

So, again, given the narratives you use to explain racial inequality, your perceptions of black Americans and other factors, where do you think that the black population in the United States would be if their ancestors had never been enslaved?* Would they have the same employment, education, crime and other rates as White Americans? Would they be in the same position they are in now?

*Note : I realize that not every black American in the United States is a descendant of slaves. This question addresses the ones that are. I hope that takes care of all the red herrings.



I suppose they would be in Africa.
 
Clever? But from the OP : "Assume that all black Americans in the country today were the descendants of people who willingly immigrated to the United States under various conditions (some came b/c of war back home, others wanted a new experiences, etc.)."

They wouldn't have been welcomed and they would have returned to Africa. They would be Africa-Africans.
 
Impossible to say, because how would the Africans be now if there would never have been colonial forces robbing them blind?
 
To me, it depends on the individual drive to succeed. Had x amount of people come here under the same, or similar, circumstances, some would have made it while others would have not. We see descendents of slaves excel, while those who are not have used, and are using, the dire circumstances of others as an excuse for their lack of drive and personal failures.
 
Clever? But from the OP : "Assume that all black Americans in the country today were the descendants of people who willingly immigrated to the United States under various conditions (some came b/c of war back home, others wanted a new experiences, etc.)."

Silly thought experiment (impossible to answer). They would be in Africa still, materially worse off than they are now of course, that's the reality, if not for slavery. They wouldn't have immigrated to a society of European colonists.

I can see what you're doing, though. Another copout for AA and similar.
 
The African Americans would be much worse off. They live in a superpower thanks to slavery. How many Africans would move from America to Africa? Not many I bet. So is America really so bad?
 
I apologize in advance.

 
Other. One is extremely unlikely to know if a given black person was (or was not) related to any slave so any racial prejudice is likely based on their race alone, with little or nothing to do with that particular person's family history. There is no "justification" for bigotry (racism is simply one form of bigotry) any more than their is justification for killing any snake in the US because 4 (native) species are venomous.
 
Change Other to "Still in Africa" and you would have a winner.

I don't think that's accurate. If there were labor needs and opportunities arose to voluntarily migrate with the promise of freedom, fair compensation, or the opportunity to strike out as poisoners; think many Africans would have willingly traveled here just like many Europeans willingly travelled here.

I can't look up a source right now but from what I understand, there are roughly as many Eurpoean Imigrants as there were Africans brought here by force but due to the harshness of slavery, the black American population did not live as long as did the population with European heritage and thus did not grow at the as me levels. That said, I agree there might not have been as many Africans who traveled here, with the absence of the cruelty of slavery, the rate as which black Americans families would have grown would likely to have given us a similar black American population.

I appreciate it when people feel free to think out loud but there's a angle about the rationale that smacks of insensitivity that would be more easily seen if applied to other groups. Example: a plausible argument could be made that modern Israel would not exist today had not world support for the Jewish people not been heightened in the wake of Hitler's cruel atrocities against them. I can't imagine anyone suggesting people should take a different look at the holocaust because "where would Israel be today if their ancestors had never been sent to concentration camps?"
 
Obviously very few (if any) blacks that came to the US as slaves would have come here any other way. Contrary to many folks view of the slave trade, those that wound up in the US were already enslaved and were simply relocated to where they commanded a higher price. My answer is other, as in, they would be elsewhere yet likely still slaves.
 
Obviously very few (if any) blacks that came to the US as slaves would have come here any other way. Contrary to many folks view of the slave trade, those that wound up in the US were already enslaved and were simply relocated to where they commanded a higher price.
Source?
 
I don't think that's accurate. If there were labor needs and opportunities arose to voluntarily migrate with the promise of freedom, fair compensation, or the opportunity to strike out as poisoners; think many Africans would have willingly traveled here just like many Europeans willingly travelled here.

I can't look up a source right now but from what I understand, there are roughly as many Eurpoean Imigrants as there were Africans brought here by force but due to the harshness of slavery, the black American population did not live as long as did the population with European heritage and thus did not grow at the as me levels. That said, I agree there might not have been as many Africans who traveled here, with the absence of the cruelty of slavery, the rate as which black Americans families would have grown would likely to have given us a similar black American population.

I appreciate it when people feel free to think out loud but there's a angle about the rationale that smacks of insensitivity that would be more easily seen if applied to other groups. Example: a plausible argument could be made that modern Israel would not exist today had not world support for the Jewish people not been heightened in the wake of Hitler's cruel atrocities against them. I can't imagine anyone suggesting people should take a different look at the holocaust because "where would Israel be today if their ancestors had never been sent to concentration camps?"

The welcoming arms of America became fists in pockets toward the Chinese the day the transcontinental railroad was completed. The same would have happened to Africans had they come voluntarily in any significant numbers.
 
I don't think that's accurate. If there were labor needs and opportunities arose to voluntarily migrate with the promise of freedom, fair compensation, or the opportunity to strike out as poisoners; think many Africans would have willingly traveled here just like many Europeans willingly travelled here.
Yeah, I don't get this attitude that Africans, unlike many Europeans, Asians and South Americans, would have just stayed in Africa.
 
The African Americans would be much worse off. They live in a superpower thanks to slavery. How many Africans would move from America to Africa? Not many I bet. So is America really so bad?
Ah, so black people should be grateful that their ancestors were subjected to brutal slavery that resulted in beating, rape, murder and other heinous crimes against humanity because now they get to have Big Macs. Awesome.
 

For what? I will assume my assertion that balck slaves were mostly bought from slave traders in Africa.

It is believed that the first African slaves were imported to the New World at the beginning of the 17th century and that the first slaves came from Senegambia and the Windward Coast.

Senegambia was a loosely defined region of West Africa that comprises the present-day nations of Senegal and The Gambia. Windward Coast is roughly the current country of Ivory Coast. This region also had a long history of supplying slaves to the Arab World.

Where In Africa Did Slaves Come From?

EDIT: See also
http://www.theroot.com/articles/wor..._come_from_in_africa_angola_is_one_place.html


If you question how many of those blacks. already in the hands of slave traders, would have otherwise made it into the US then I will leave that to common sense.
 
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For what? I will assume my assertion that balck slaves were mostly bought from slave traders in Africa.

Where In Africa Did Slaves Come From?

EDIT: See also
Where Did Slaves Come From in Africa? Angola Is One Place - The Root

If you question how many of those blacks. already in the hands of slave traders, would have otherwise made it into the US then I will leave that to common sense.
Yes, you stated "those that wound up in the US were already enslaved and were simply relocated to where they commanded a higher price". This is inaccurate. While many Africans were sold to European and American slave traders, most of them were not already enslaved. They were free people who were kidnapped specifically to serve the needs of European and American slave traders.

The majority of kidnapped Africans weren't already slaves in Africa. They were free people who were kidnapped to provide the labour that the European powers required to build their colonies in the Americas.

The transatlantic slave trade: introduction
 
Where would black Americans be if their ancestors had never been enslaved? Assume that all black Americans in the country today were the descendants of people who willingly immigrated to the United States under various conditions (some came b/c of war back home, others wanted a new experiences, etc.).

We obviously cannot answer this question definitively, but I would like people's thoughts on the matter regardless. Responding with "we can never really know", "there's just too many factors to come up with an answer" or similarly defeatist answers is not welcomed in this thread. This is a thought experiment, not a dissertation defense.

So, again, given the narratives you use to explain racial inequality, your perceptions of black Americans and other factors, where do you think that the black population in the United States would be if their ancestors had never been enslaved?* Would they have the same employment, education, crime and other rates as White Americans? Would they be in the same position they are in now?

*Note : I realize that not every black American in the United States is a descendant of slaves. This question addresses the ones that are. I hope that takes care of all the red herrings.

Thank you for making this thread! I am actually starting to write a science-fiction novel based on this very idea! So it will give me a lot to work with. The general idea I have is, that the majority of Africans stayed in Africa. They built up their defenses and civilized the continent. This led to a booming population and whites becoming a minority. The Africans are still quite totalitarian but have remained strictly isolationists because they are proud of their culture and don't feel the need to mess with others. Since the West is limited due to the slave trade never existing, and dominated by Chinese, French, and Irish. It is very scared of Africa's power. There is a twist in my book where the North is bombed and radiation makes it unlivable from Northern Virginia upwards. During the second World War, which still happens in their past, but slightly different. So the South is now called the United Southern States and are actually quite friendly with the Africans because Africans don't like dealing with Europe anymore than the South does. Though no African in their right minds would venture far from their shores and would not step foot into America. Racism is rampant throughout the world and whites are called pinkskins!

I'm still working out the kinks but it's going somewhere, and I don't think anything like this has been published yet. If anybody knows of any novels like this or about this topic. I would love to check it out. I hope everyone likes my idea. Will be keeping an eye on this thread.
 
I think it's rather ridiculous that so many are trying to offer black and white answers - "if blacks were not slaves then they'd still be in Africa and would not be a part of this great nation" <--- This is a bull**** response. especially since it apparently stems from the false notion that this country owes all it's greatness to white settlers. This countries greatness is nuanced and can be attributed to all the minorities that migrated here.

Especially the black slaves on who's backs much of this country was built upon. A lot of the economic success of the south relied on slaves.

So in an alternate universe where America never had black slaves the possible trajectories that alternate sequence of events could go is endless.
 
Where would black Americans be if their ancestors had never been enslaved? Assume that all black Americans in the country today were the descendants of people who willingly immigrated to the United States under various conditions (some came b/c of war back home, others wanted a new experiences, etc.).

We obviously cannot answer this question definitively, but I would like people's thoughts on the matter regardless. Responding with "we can never really know", "there's just too many factors to come up with an answer" or similarly defeatist answers is not welcomed in this thread. This is a thought experiment, not a dissertation defense.

So, again, given the narratives you use to explain racial inequality, your perceptions of black Americans and other factors, where do you think that the black population in the United States would be if their ancestors had never been enslaved?* Would they have the same employment, education, crime and other rates as White Americans? Would they be in the same position they are in now?

*Note : I realize that not every black American in the United States is a descendant of slaves. This question addresses the ones that are. I hope that takes care of all the red herrings.




Well, most of them would hypothetically be living in Africa, which for most part means they'd be worse off in most ways that matter.
 
Where would black Americans be if their ancestors had never been enslaved? Assume that all black Americans in the country today were the descendants of people who willingly immigrated to the United States under various conditions (some came b/c of war back home, others wanted a new experiences, etc.).

We obviously cannot answer this question definitively, but I would like people's thoughts on the matter regardless. Responding with "we can never really know", "there's just too many factors to come up with an answer" or similarly defeatist answers is not welcomed in this thread. This is a thought experiment, not a dissertation defense.

So, again, given the narratives you use to explain racial inequality, your perceptions of black Americans and other factors, where do you think that the black population in the United States would be if their ancestors had never been enslaved?* Would they have the same employment, education, crime and other rates as White Americans? Would they be in the same position they are in now?

*Note : I realize that not every black American in the United States is a descendant of slaves. This question addresses the ones that are. I hope that takes care of all the red herrings.

Judging by how immigrant africans do compared to native AA's, they would be better off.
 
Yes, you stated "those that wound up in the US were already enslaved and were simply relocated to where they commanded a higher price". This is inaccurate. While many Africans were sold to European and American slave traders, most of them were not already enslaved. They were free people who were kidnapped specifically to serve the needs of European and American slave traders.

The majority of kidnapped Africans weren't already slaves in Africa. They were free people who were kidnapped to provide the labour that the European powers required to build their colonies in the Americas.

The transatlantic slave trade: introduction

No doubt that an increase in demand caused an increase in supply of, and profit on, slaves but my point is that areas with an existing slave trade were not created by the "sudden US demand" for slaves which was less than that of the Caribbean and South/Central America.
 
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