View Poll Results: Where would black Americans be if their ancestors had never been enslaved?

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  • They would be in the same position they are now.

    3 2.80%
  • They would be in a better position.

    67 62.62%
  • They would be in a worse position.

    18 16.82%
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    19 17.76%
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Thread: Where would black Americans be if their ancestors had never been enslaved?

  1. #111
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    Re: Where would black Americans be if their ancestors had never been enslaved?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lovebug View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by brothern View Post
    No ... not true. Blacks are disadvantaged today (comparatively) not just because of slavery, but because we whites were unapologetic racists who held blacks in deeper contempt than they did just about any other racial group for 100+ years.

    Meaning Lovebug, it has nothing to do with "individual drive to succeed." Yes, Abe Lincoln enforced the emancipation proclamation. But we then had (and still have) 100+ years of white people like US State Governors (George Wallace, Benjamin Tillman, JCW Beckham), Supreme Court Justices (the 7 deciding judges on Plessy v. Ferguson, including the White League member), influential politicians (Sen. Theodore Bilbo, Sen. Jeter Pritchard, leader of the lilly-white movement), religious leaders, military leaders, entertainers, journalists, and on and on and on.

    All of those white people are people who dedicated their lives to annihilating any progress made by any black person in America.

    If blacks had never been enslaved, but had still come to American, they would have still had to deal with white racists. People who held the highest, most influential positions in America and were unapologetic, vile racists. Honestly? Chris Rock had it right. The Civil Right's movement had little to do with black progress, and a whole hell of a lot more to do with white progress.
    Excuse me for laughing. Please explain to me then how some blacks, as mentioned prior, from the neighborhoods and comparable circumstances, make it by pulling themselves up and out, while others use their circumstance as an excuse.
    Why is it that an immigrant from the Ukraine or Vietnam or China, coming here with only a few $ in their pockets, work their arses off and make something of themselves? Are they more privileged than any American citizen? Do they perhaps work hard, safe their money and invest to move forward, more often than not without any Gov assistance?
    Please don't cry me a river. I have been there and done that and know first hand what is possible. I also know that it is so much easier to sit at home, text a bit and bitch about what others owe you.
    You're going to attack me as "entitled"? Love - I'm white, was raised by an upper-middle class family and I earn almost double what the median American makes. And I'm just out of college.

    So, no dear. Sticking up for black people, who have long been the victims of institutionalized racism, doesn't make me entitled, but it certainly says something about YOUR attitudes towards racial minorities.

    I really don't find your "racial beliefs" funny at all. I'm not laughing at your HAR-HAR "black people are lazy" joke.
    Last edited by brothern; 03-09-15 at 02:26 PM.
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    Re: Where would black Americans be if their ancestors had never been enslaved?

    Quote Originally Posted by brothern View Post
    No ... not true. Blacks are disadvantaged today (comparatively) not just because of slavery, but because we whites were unapologetic racists who held blacks in deeper contempt than they did just about any other racial group for 100+ years.

    Meaning Lovebug, it has nothing to do with "individual drive to succeed." Yes, Abe Lincoln enforced the emancipation proclamation. But we then had (and still have) 100+ years of white people like US State Governors (George Wallace, Benjamin Tillman, JCW Beckham), Supreme Court Justices (the 7 deciding judges on Plessy v. Ferguson, including the White League member), influential politicians (Sen. Theodore Bilbo, Sen. Jeter Pritchard, leader of the lilly-white movement), religious leaders, military leaders, entertainers, journalists, and on and on and on.

    All of those white people are people who dedicated their lives to annihilating any progress made by any black person in America.

    If blacks had never been enslaved, but had still come to American, they would have still had to deal with white racists. People who held the highest, most influential positions in America and were unapologetic, vile racists. Honestly? Chris Rock had it right. The Civil Right's movement had little to do with black progress, and a whole hell of a lot more to do with white progress.
    For hundreds if not thousands of years, men were unapologetic sexists who believed women had no place in the working world, couldn't make financial decisions, couldn't vote, couldn't own land, and were second class citizens. That wasn't even a cultural thing. There are a lot of people (males) who hold those beliefs today. And women rose above it. Those that wanted to, anyway.

    There are people all over this country who look down on others. That will never change. A black man can get elected President of the United States now. So the racists that still exist aren't winning, are they?
    Horse sense is the thing a horse has which keeps it from betting on people. ~W.C. Fields

  3. #113
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    Re: Where would black Americans be if their ancestors had never been enslaved?

    Quote Originally Posted by tres borrachos View Post
    For hundreds if not thousands of years, men were unapologetic sexists who believed women had no place in the working world, couldn't make financial decisions, couldn't vote, couldn't own land, and were second class citizens. That wasn't even a cultural thing. There are a lot of people (males) who hold those beliefs today. And women rose above it. Those that wanted to, anyway.

    There are people all over this country who look down on others. That will never change. A black man can get elected President of the United States now. So the racists that still exist aren't winning, are they?
    Excellent post!

    Note, that we see no such threads as this about women.....

    Note also that we hear little in the way of "we are still held down" or what if there had been no...."

    And gays, I recall when bars would have 'doormen' to make sure gay men did not get in. Not anymore, and we hear no attitude about "ancestors"

    When both sides stop pushing everyone's buttons as with this thread, race will stop being an issue that consumes a nation.

    I doubt blacks will be electable as president anytime soon after Obama
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    Re: Where would black Americans be if their ancestors had never been enslaved?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fearandloathing View Post
    Excellent post!

    Note, that we see no such threads as this about women.....

    Note also that we hear little in the way of "we are still held down" or what if there had been no...."

    And gays, I recall when bars would have 'doormen' to make sure gay men did not get in. Not anymore, and we hear no attitude about "ancestors"

    When both sides stop pushing everyone's buttons as with this thread, race will stop being an issue that consumes a nation.

    I doubt blacks will be electable as president anytime soon after Obama
    My great grandfather, who was an Irish immigrant into Jersey City, had his truck (business - he shipped shoes) taken away from him because he was Irish and nobody would help him. It was a terrible thing. But he rose above it. I'm 3 generations away from that. And I could either complain about how my ancestor was treated, or make my own way in the world.

    My maiden name is a German name. In the 1940s my father was turned away from 3 hotels in Lake George NY because the owners assumed he was Jewish (our name could also be Jewish). And my grandfather's dachshund was kidnapped and killed in the 1940s, and when they were young men in Massachusetts, my father and uncle were tortures, teased, and beaten up, all because they assumed my grandfather was a Nazi (my family was assumed to be both sides). It was terrible, but we learn from it and become our own people.
    Horse sense is the thing a horse has which keeps it from betting on people. ~W.C. Fields

  5. #115
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    Re: Where would black Americans be if their ancestors had never been enslaved?

    Quote Originally Posted by tres borrachos View Post
    For hundreds if not thousands of years, men were unapologetic sexists who believed women had no place in the working world, couldn't make financial decisions, couldn't vote, couldn't own land, and were second class citizens. That wasn't even a cultural thing. There are a lot of people (males) who hold those beliefs today. And women rose above it. Those that wanted to, anyway.

    There are people all over this country who look down on others. That will never change. A black man can get elected President of the United States now. So the racists that still exist aren't winning, are they?
    There's been qualified blacks politicians for decades now. Even some who've run for president. As well as very qualified female politicians, who've also run for president.

    Yet it wasn't until 2008 that whites and males tolerated voting for black and female presidential candidates to a large degree. Even still, comparative analysis to past elections showed that Obama saw depressed turn-outs and vote totals in white areas.

    So I fail to see how that's an accomplishment for blacks or women, rather than the further demonstration of the closed-mindedness of whites and males.
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  6. #116
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    Re: Where would black Americans be if their ancestors had never been enslaved?

    Quote Originally Posted by tres borrachos View Post
    For hundreds if not thousands of years, men were unapologetic sexists who believed women had no place in the working world, couldn't make financial decisions, couldn't vote, couldn't own land, and were second class citizens. That wasn't even a cultural thing. There are a lot of people (males) who hold those beliefs today. And women rose above it. Those that wanted to, anyway.

    There are people all over this country who look down on others. That will never change. A black man can get elected President of the United States now. So the racists that still exist aren't winning, are they?
    Great post. We can come up with a long list, and it won't be very difficult.

  7. #117
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    Re: Where would black Americans be if their ancestors had never been enslaved?

    Quote Originally Posted by tres borrachos View Post
    My great grandfather, who was an Irish immigrant into Jersey City, had his truck (business - he shipped shoes) taken away from him because he was Irish and nobody would help him. It was a terrible thing. But he rose above it. I'm 3 generations away from that. And I could either complain about how my ancestor was treated, or make my own way in the world.

    My maiden name is a German name. In the 1940s my father was turned away from 3 hotels in Lake George NY because the owners assumed he was Jewish (our name could also be Jewish). And my grandfather's dachshund was kidnapped and killed in the 1940s, and when they were young men in Massachusetts, my father and uncle were tortures, teased, and beaten up, all because they assumed my grandfather was a Nazi (my family was assumed to be both sides). It was terrible, but we learn from it and become our own people.


    I am of half Polish descent. Among my fondest memories is sitting with my aunt who had been a teen slave laborer in Germany during the war. And she would laugh as she told us how they never tied off the buttons on the German uniforms they had to sew causing soldiers pants to fall down. I have read extensively about the Polish resistance who lived in the wilderness and fought Panzers with Molotov cocktails; and I have been to Poland behind the Iron Curtain where Russians patrolled the streets.

    The Polish people ave been conquered and enslaved, their lands chopped up and partitioned to whoever wanted, from the Swedes, to the French, to Germany and the Russians.

    As a child we were forbidden to speak Polish outside the home, lest anyone know we were Polish, and of course Polish jokes are not "racist" so everyone tells them. Imagine if someone opened with "did you hear about the Negro who...?

    And yet I don't go nuts every time I see a Mercedes.

    I don't buy the generation thing. I learned the Polish people have NOTHING to be ashamed of, have lived under oppression more years than the US has been the US.....and you never hear a Pollock saying..."I never had a chance"

    Usually because they're getting rich fixing your car
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  8. #118
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    Re: Where would black Americans be if their ancestors had never been enslaved?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lovebug View Post
    Excuse me for laughing. Please explain to me then how some blacks, as mentioned prior, from the neighborhoods and comparable circumstances, make it by pulling themselves up and out, while others use their circumstance as an excuse.
    Your using exceptions to explain the rule. This is illogical. Using "some black people" as evidence that "drive" is the issue for black people is just as illogical as using rags to riches stories as evidence that "drive" is the issue for poor people.

    Do they perhaps work hard, safe their money and invest to move forward, more often than not without any Gov assistance?
    I don't know, but since you seem to think that this is the case, would you provide some research that shows how the immigrants you speak of compare to the black Americans with regard to working hard, saving money and investing it without government assistance? I know you wouldn't just throw out that hypothesis unless you have some data to back it up.

    Please don't cry me a river.
    I've noticed this sentiment a lot among people who are ignorant about the issues facing black Americans. You guys seem to think that those of us who know what we're talking about are somehow trying to garner your sympathy. Speaking for myself, I'm just trying to educate you. If you reject the education, I move on. You'll only accept it when you're ready.

  9. #119
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    Re: Where would black Americans be if their ancestors had never been enslaved?

    Quote Originally Posted by brothern View Post
    There's been qualified blacks politicians for decades now. Even some who've run for president. As well as very qualified female politicians, who've also run for president.

    Yet it wasn't until 2008 that whites and males tolerated voting for black and female presidential candidates to a large degree. Even still, comparative analysis to past elections showed that Obama saw depressed turn-outs and vote totals in white areas.

    So I fail to see how that's an accomplishment for blacks or women, rather than the further demonstration of the closed-mindedness of whites and males.
    Not only did a black man run for President, he won - twice. So again, what do the racists win by being racist? In this country a black man can rise to the most powerful position in this country.
    Horse sense is the thing a horse has which keeps it from betting on people. ~W.C. Fields

  10. #120
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    Re: Where would black Americans be if their ancestors had never been enslaved?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gathomas88 View Post
    The "black" parts of Africa? Ummm... Yes?

    Hell! Even the substantially more advanced Arab populations in the North never showed any interest in immigration to the West until well after they had been colonized.
    Quote Originally Posted by shrubnose View Post
    What would they have used for transportation?

    Fill us in.

    Okay, you know what? I don't know or even particularly care by what mechanics Africans could or couldn't have made it to America. My only point was that if they had come here voluntarily it would have had a very different outcome. Is that really debatable?

    Quote Originally Posted by brothern View Post
    No ... not true. Blacks are disadvantaged today (comparatively) not just because of slavery, but because we whites were unapologetic racists who held blacks in deeper contempt than they did just about any other racial group for 100+ years.

    Meaning Lovebug, it has nothing to do with "individual drive to succeed." Yes, Abe Lincoln enforced the emancipation proclamation. But we then had (and still have) 100+ years of white people like US State Governors (George Wallace, Benjamin Tillman, JCW Beckham), Supreme Court Justices (the 7 deciding judges on Plessy v. Ferguson, including the White League member), influential politicians (Sen. Theodore Bilbo, Sen. Jeter Pritchard, leader of the lilly-white movement), religious leaders, military leaders, entertainers, journalists, and on and on and on.

    All of those white people are people who dedicated their lives to annihilating any progress made by any black person in America.

    If blacks had never been enslaved, but had still come to American, they would have still had to deal with white racists. People who held the highest, most influential positions in America and were unapologetic, vile racists. Honestly? Chris Rock had it right. The Civil Right's movement had little to do with black progress, and a whole hell of a lot more to do with white progress.
    I took the spirit of the OP to be that in this hypothetical parallel history, blacks faced roughly the same levels of racism and contempt as other immigrant groups coming into the United States.
    Last edited by Cardinal; 03-09-15 at 03:25 PM.

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