View Poll Results: Where would black Americans be if their ancestors had never been enslaved?

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  • They would be in the same position they are now.

    3 2.80%
  • They would be in a better position.

    67 62.62%
  • They would be in a worse position.

    18 16.82%
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    19 17.76%
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Thread: Where would black Americans be if their ancestors had never been enslaved?

  1. #101
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    Re: Where would black Americans be if their ancestors had never been enslaved?

    Quote Originally Posted by ThePlayDrive View Post
    Where would black Americans be if their ancestors had never been enslaved? Assume that all black Americans in the country today were the descendants of people who willingly immigrated to the United States under various conditions (some came b/c of war back home, others wanted a new experiences, etc.).

    We obviously cannot answer this question definitively, but I would like people's thoughts on the matter regardless. Responding with "we can never really know", "there's just too many factors to come up with an answer" or similarly defeatist answers is not welcomed in this thread. This is a thought experiment, not a dissertation defense.

    So, again, given the narratives you use to explain racial inequality, your perceptions of black Americans and other factors, where do you think that the black population in the United States would be if their ancestors had never been enslaved?* Would they have the same employment, education, crime and other rates as White Americans? Would they be in the same position they are in now?

    *Note : I realize that not every black American in the United States is a descendant of slaves. This question addresses the ones that are. I hope that takes care of all the red herrings.
    Yes, they probably would have shared roughly the same educational and professional statistics as other races. Other immigrant groups did not have their languages, religions, cultures and names forcibly removed from them, and were allowed their own chosen way to assimilate into the American system.

  2. #102
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    Re: Where would black Americans be if their ancestors had never been enslaved?

    Quote Originally Posted by shrubnose View Post
    I suppose they would be in Africa.
    That doesn't make any sense. People would have emigrated from Africa for reasons similar to other groups, like the Jews, Chinese, Italians and Irish: oppression or poverty at home and hopes of a better life.
    Last edited by Cardinal; 03-09-15 at 12:22 PM.

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    Re: Where would black Americans be if their ancestors had never been enslaved?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal View Post
    That doesn't make any sense. People would have emigrated from Africa for reasons similar to other groups, like the Jews, Chinese, Italians and Irish: oppression or poverty at home and hopes of a better life.
    No, they really wouldn't have, at least not until much, much later, and in far smaller numbers. African society prior to colonization was simply too primitive, too alien, and too isolated for immigration to the United States.

    I mean... I'm sorry, but do really think groups like the freaking Zulu were as liable (or even able) to immigrate as European Italians or Jews? How exactly?
    Last edited by Gathomas88; 03-09-15 at 12:44 PM.

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    Re: Where would black Americans be if their ancestors had never been enslaved?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gathomas88 View Post
    No, they really wouldn't have, at least not until much, much later, and in far smaller numbers.

    African society prior to colonization was simply too primitive, too alien, and too isolated for immigration to the United States.
    All of Africa?

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    Re: Where would black Americans be if their ancestors had never been enslaved?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal View Post
    All of Africa?
    The "black" parts of Africa? Ummm... Yes?

    Hell! Even the substantially more advanced Arab populations in the North never showed any interest in immigration to the West until well after they had been colonized.

  6. #106
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    Re: Where would black Americans be if their ancestors had never been enslaved?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal View Post
    Yes, they probably would have shared roughly the same educational and professional statistics as other races. Other immigrant groups did not have their languages, religions, cultures and names forcibly removed from them, and were allowed their own chosen way to assimilate into the American system.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lovebug View Post
    To me, it depends on the individual drive to succeed. Had x amount of people come here under the same, or similar, circumstances, some would have made it while others would have not. We see descendents of slaves excel, while those who are not have used, and are using, the dire circumstances of others as an excuse for their lack of drive and personal failures.
    No ... not true. Blacks are disadvantaged today (comparatively) not just because of slavery, but because we whites were unapologetic racists who held blacks in deeper contempt than they did just about any other racial group for 100+ years.

    Meaning Lovebug, it has nothing to do with "individual drive to succeed." Yes, Abe Lincoln enforced the emancipation proclamation. But we then had (and still have) 100+ years of white people like US State Governors (George Wallace, Benjamin Tillman, JCW Beckham), Supreme Court Justices (the 7 deciding judges on Plessy v. Ferguson, including the White League member), influential politicians (Sen. Theodore Bilbo, Sen. Jeter Pritchard, leader of the lilly-white movement), religious leaders, military leaders, entertainers, journalists, and on and on and on.

    All of those white people are people who dedicated their lives to annihilating any progress made by any black person in America.

    If blacks had never been enslaved, but had still come to American, they would have still had to deal with white racists. People who held the highest, most influential positions in America and were unapologetic, vile racists. Honestly? Chris Rock had it right. The Civil Right's movement had little to do with black progress, and a whole hell of a lot more to do with white progress.
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    Re: Where would black Americans be if their ancestors had never been enslaved?

    Quote Originally Posted by ThePlayDrive View Post
    Where would black Americans be if their ancestors had never been enslaved? Assume that all black Americans in the country today were the descendants of people who willingly immigrated to the United States under various conditions (some came b/c of war back home, others wanted a new experiences, etc.).

    We obviously cannot answer this question definitively, but I would like people's thoughts on the matter regardless. Responding with "we can never really know", "there's just too many factors to come up with an answer" or similarly defeatist answers is not welcomed in this thread. This is a thought experiment, not a dissertation defense.

    So, again, given the narratives you use to explain racial inequality, your perceptions of black Americans and other factors, where do you think that the black population in the United States would be if their ancestors had never been enslaved?* Would they have the same employment, education, crime and other rates as White Americans? Would they be in the same position they are in now?

    *Note : I realize that not every black American in the United States is a descendant of slaves. This question addresses the ones that are. I hope that takes care of all the red herrings.
    Yes, clearly the second poll response -- they would have been better off -- is the obvious correct answer.

    Captured and forced to become strangers in a strange land against their will and in terrible fear, beaten, murdered, forced to work long hours, sometimes chained up ..

    .. Then have an entire region scapegoat and hate them for that region's economic decline ..

    .. Have them endure hatred, exploited, feared because they'll work for peanuts just to survive thus taking jobs away from others who would usually get paid more, subjected to economic discrimination, poverty, etc., etc. for decades, have to jump through way more hoops than others just to begin to get ahead ...

    Now, instead, imagine people, little by little, choosing to come here, not en masse as slaves, but as individuals, seek employment, never blamed for a region's economic demise or the deaths of those who freed them, free to seek out and find friends, work hard and get rewarded for their work paid the same as anyone, and coming here is such small amounts each year they don't contribute to over-population ...

    Major positive attitude difference, for themselves, and for others who know them as well as those who don't, not to mention major positive economic difference too.

    Without question the second answer in the poll is accurate.

    Sure, there would be some here who, because of the difference in color of their skin and equatorial appearance from themselves, would be challenged by their degree of early childhood inculcated fear of that which is different.

    But that wouldn't at all come even close to creating the horrors for anyone or en masse as the way it actually happened.
    Last edited by Ontologuy; 03-09-15 at 01:27 PM.
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    Re: Where would black Americans be if their ancestors had never been enslaved?

    Quote Originally Posted by ThePlayDrive View Post
    Where would black Americans be if their ancestors had never been enslaved? Assume that all black Americans in the country today were the descendants of people who willingly immigrated to the United States under various conditions (some came b/c of war back home, others wanted a new experiences, etc.).

    We obviously cannot answer this question definitively, but I would like people's thoughts on the matter regardless. Responding with "we can never really know", "there's just too many factors to come up with an answer" or similarly defeatist answers is not welcomed in this thread. This is a thought experiment, not a dissertation defense.

    So, again, given the narratives you use to explain racial inequality, your perceptions of black Americans and other factors, where do you think that the black population in the United States would be if their ancestors had never been enslaved?* Would they have the same employment, education, crime and other rates as White Americans? Would they be in the same position they are in now?

    *Note : I realize that not every black American in the United States is a descendant of slaves. This question addresses the ones that are. I hope that takes care of all the red herrings.
    How are they living in the other places they migrated to?

    They would have been treated in this country with the same suspicion and problems as many other groups that migrated here. I'm of Irish descent (half) and my great grandparents were discriminated against. And anyone in this country can get an education or a job so if they had emigrated here as opposed to being enslaved, that would be up to them where they are today. Where is any other group today?
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  9. #109
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    Re: Where would black Americans be if their ancestors had never been enslaved?

    Quote Originally Posted by brothern View Post
    No ... not true. Blacks are disadvantaged today (comparatively) not just because of slavery, but because we whites were unapologetic racists who held blacks in deeper contempt than they did just about any other racial group for 100+ years.

    Meaning Lovebug, it has nothing to do with "individual drive to succeed." Yes, Abe Lincoln enforced the emancipation proclamation. But we then had (and still have) 100+ years of white people like US State Governors (George Wallace, Benjamin Tillman, JCW Beckham), Supreme Court Justices (the 7 deciding judges on Plessy v. Ferguson, including the White League member), influential politicians (Sen. Theodore Bilbo, Sen. Jeter Pritchard, leader of the lilly-white movement), religious leaders, military leaders, entertainers, journalists, and on and on and on.

    All of those white people are people who dedicated their lives to annihilating any progress made by any black person in America.

    If blacks had never been enslaved, but had still come to American, they would have still had to deal with white racists. People who held the highest, most influential positions in America and were unapologetic, vile racists. Honestly? Chris Rock had it right. The Civil Right's movement had little to do with black progress, and a whole hell of a lot more to do with white progress.
    Excuse me for laughing. Please explain to me then how some blacks, as mentioned prior, from the neighborhoods and comparable circumstances, make it by pulling themselves up and out, while others use their circumstance as an excuse.
    Why is it that an immigrant from the Ukraine or Vietnam or China, coming here with only a few $ in their pockets, work their arses off and make something of themselves? Are they more privileged than any American citizen? Do they perhaps work hard, safe their money and invest to move forward, more often than not without any Gov assistance?
    Please don't cry me a river. I have been there and done that and know first hand what is possible. I also know that it is so much easier to sit at home, text a bit and bitch about what others owe you.

  10. #110
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    Re: Where would black Americans be if their ancestors had never been enslaved?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal View Post
    That doesn't make any sense.
    People would have emigrated from Africa
    for reasons similar to other groups, like the Jews, Chinese, Italians and Irish: oppression or poverty at home and hopes of a better life.


    What would they have used for transportation?

    Fill us in.





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