View Poll Results: Are Western Fighters Who Join ISIS Better Dead or Facing Trial Back Home?

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  • Better Dead

    26 32.91%
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    24 30.38%
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Thread: Are Western Fighters Who Join ISIS Better Dead or Facing Trial Back Home?

  1. #21
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    Re: Are Western Fighters Who Join ISIS Better Dead or Facing Trial Back Home?

    Quote Originally Posted by joko104 View Post
    Not such a simple legal question. There is no declared state-of-war between the USA and ISIS. Does the USA even formally acknowledge that ISIS exists?

    Americans historically have fought for other militaries, other countries and other organizations from the past (such as the Flying Tigers for China) to various mercenary ventures and for other countries. People who are citizens of other countries can enlist in our military and that isn't all that rare.

    So... if someone goes to Syrian to fight against the Syrian government or against the Syrian rebels, or goes to join ISIS to fight against the Kurds or Iranians, what crime was committed against the USA?

    If an American went to Iran to fight with the Kurds against ISIS, is that illegal?
    ISIS is listed as a Foreign Terrorist Organization. Foreign Terrorist Organizations

    "It is unlawful for a person in the United States or subject to the jurisdiction of the United States to knowingly provide "material support or resources" to a designated FTO. (The term "material support or resources" is defined in 18 U.S.C. § 2339A(b)(1) as " any property, tangible or intangible, or service, including currency or monetary instruments or financial securities, financial services, lodging, training, expert advice or assistance, safehouses, false documentation or identification, communications equipment, facilities, weapons, lethal substances, explosives, personnel (1 or more individuals who maybe or include oneself), and transportation, except medicine or religious materials.” 18 U.S.C. § 2339A(b)(2) provides that for these purposes “the term ‘training’ means instruction or teaching designed to impart a specific skill, as opposed to general knowledge.” 18 U.S.C. § 2339A(b)(3) further provides that for these purposes the term ‘expert advice or assistance’ means advice or assistance derived from scientific, technical or other specialized knowledge.’’"

  2. #22
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    Re: Are Western Fighters Who Join ISIS Better Dead or Facing Trial Back Home?

    Quote Originally Posted by FreedomFromAll View Post
    ISIS is listed as a Foreign Terrorist Organization. Foreign Terrorist Organizations

    "It is unlawful for a person in the United States or subject to the jurisdiction of the United States to knowingly provide "material support or resources" to a designated FTO. (The term "material support or resources" is defined in 18 U.S.C. § 2339A(b)(1) as " any property, tangible or intangible, or service, including currency or monetary instruments or financial securities, financial services, lodging, training, expert advice or assistance, safehouses, false documentation or identification, communications equipment, facilities, weapons, lethal substances, explosives, personnel (1 or more individuals who maybe or include oneself), and transportation, except medicine or religious materials.” 18 U.S.C. § 2339A(b)(2) provides that for these purposes “the term ‘training’ means instruction or teaching designed to impart a specific skill, as opposed to general knowledge.” 18 U.S.C. § 2339A(b)(3) further provides that for these purposes the term ‘expert advice or assistance’ means advice or assistance derived from scientific, technical or other specialized knowledge.’’"

    OK, you answered my question. What is the potential penalty?

  3. #23
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    Re: Are Western Fighters Who Join ISIS Better Dead or Facing Trial Back Home?

    Quote Originally Posted by joko104 View Post
    OK, you answered my question. What is the potential penalty?
    Honestly I dont know. I guess though that once you go and join ISIS you are now a member of ISIS, just like any other ISIS member. SO at the very least you are fair game in the field. ANd once you come back to the US you are a terrorist on the loose in the US. Off to GITMO probably to face a military tribunal.

  4. #24
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    Re: Are Western Fighters Who Join ISIS Better Dead or Facing Trial Back Home?

    Quote Originally Posted by US Conservative View Post
    There are those amongst us (cough, liberals) who want this to be something different than what it is-enemies of the US who are absolutely subject to execution.
    They make their choices, if they want to stand with ISIS, bullets work just as well on them.
    There is nothing demonstrably true that religion can provide the world that cannot be achieved more rationally through entirely secular means.

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    Re: Are Western Fighters Who Join ISIS Better Dead or Facing Trial Back Home?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    They make their choices, if they want to stand with ISIS, bullets work just as well on them.
    Damn straight. Send em to allah in style.

  6. #26
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    Re: Are Western Fighters Who Join ISIS Better Dead or Facing Trial Back Home?

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDemSocialist View Post
    Depends on if can be captured alive or not, and if they are willingly coming home or not.
    Do you know how illogical that is. "If they are willing to come home ", so they are so altruistic that they are fighting for the creation of a 'home ' for someone else's benefit Better dead.
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  7. #27
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    Re: Are Western Fighters Who Join ISIS Better Dead or Facing Trial Back Home?

    Quote Originally Posted by gunner View Post
    Do you know how illogical that is. "If they are willing to come home ", so they are so altruistic that they are fighting for the creation of a 'home ' for someone else's benefit Better dead.
    Its important to remember that American leftists are much more bound by PC than say europeans. You likely last saw this divide during the Paris attacks.

  8. #28
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    Re: Are Western Fighters Who Join ISIS Better Dead or Facing Trial Back Home?

    Quote Originally Posted by Morality Games View Post
    Ejecting someone from the rolls of citizenship (under any circumstances) sets a very dangerous precedent; Cicero bringing the practice to Rome contributed greatly to the decline of republican principle in Roman society, and Cicero himself was killed by much the same process when his political rivals transformed Rome into an imperial state. The relationship between citizen and state is supposed to be inviolate on the state's part. Only citizens can renounce their citizenship.

    Generally speaking, citizens of Western states that are also proven enemy combatants don't need to lose their citizenship to be justifiable military targets. They are the military equivalent of armed and dangerous suspects resisting arrest; if they surrender they should be taken according to the rules of war and accorded their legal rights as citizens, but if they continue resisting, the threat they pose as enemy combatants supersedes their right to due process.

    A citizen's right to due process and rule of law is contingent on them cooperating with the state. The state has to scale the forcefulness of their efforts to detain a suspect with the degree of threat the suspect poses.
    I disagree with your statement and the bolded sentence above is inconsistent with your comments. It's the only part of your statement I do agree with. Clearly, a person who takes up arms against his own country and his country's armed forces is not "cooperating with the state" and thus forfeits their citizenship. Many who choose to join ISIS have dual citizenships of convenience, taking advantage of our generosity and our lifestyle - let the caliphate protect their rights and privileges.
    "Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other views." William F. Buckley Jr.

  9. #29
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    Re: Are Western Fighters Who Join ISIS Better Dead or Facing Trial Back Home?

    Quote Originally Posted by dmvpolitical View Post
    That's what you would think. However, one of these sickos dying in battle could spur even more attacks and recruits for ISIS. This is the martyrdom culture that these groups thrive in, and only when absolutely necessary should ISIS members be killed. Send them to Gitmo and let them rot
    Yes, and out of the other side of your mouth, along with other liberals, you're bitching that Gitmo is a recruiting tool for Islamic extremists and should be closed.
    Last edited by CanadaJohn; 03-08-15 at 06:13 AM.
    "Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other views." William F. Buckley Jr.

  10. #30
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    Re: Are Western Fighters Who Join ISIS Better Dead or Facing Trial Back Home?

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDemSocialist View Post
    Depends on if can be captured alive or not
    Think it through - who will go capture them for you? How expendable do you think your country's security people are and the legality (and practicality) of sending small groups of western boots into such a zone to capture these people?

    I read another poster on another thread talking of hunting these people down - again this brings in the problems we have legally / logistically and practically of hunting western jihadis down in Syria / Iraq / Somalia etc.


    Quote Originally Posted by TheDemSocialist View Post
    if they are willingly coming home or not.
    Why should we let them back in - willingly or not? We already know ISIS and similar groups want some of their operatives to come and create havoc here so why should we help ISIS with this?

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