View Poll Results: Are Western Fighters Who Join ISIS Better Dead or Facing Trial Back Home?

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  • Better Dead

    26 32.91%
  • Better Facing Persecution Back Home

    24 30.38%
  • I do not know/care

    29 36.71%
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Thread: Are Western Fighters Who Join ISIS Better Dead or Facing Trial Back Home?

  1. #11
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    Re: Are Western Fighters Who Join ISIS Better Dead or Facing Trial Back Home?

    Quote Originally Posted by Carjosse View Post
    From my understanding of the article it was the deputy prime minister that said he was speaking for the VVD not Rutte himself and the article made it sound like he was speaking as prime minster. I can read some Dutch but I am nowhere near proficient enough to read a NOS article on it. It might just be a bad translation. I do think it may be an attempt to maybe take some votes from the PVV either way.
    Well, he was making his statement in an election debate with other political party leaders. So in all honesty, he was there fighting for votes for his political party.

    The governments point a view is different to the prime-ministers views so the already agreed strategy/point of view is still valid and will remain valid. And I think it is also because during an election campaign, the prime minister is wearing 2 different hats/serving 2 different masters. He is both prime-minister and he is also the leader of his political party.
    Former military man (and now babysitter of Donald Trump) John Kelly, is a big loud lying empty barrel!

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    Re: Are Western Fighters Who Join ISIS Better Dead or Facing Trial Back Home?

    Better off dead, for them and us.

  3. #13
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    Re: Are Western Fighters Who Join ISIS Better Dead or Facing Trial Back Home?

    Quote Originally Posted by Carjosse View Post
    I was reading this article (in English) from the Netherlands. For those who do not want to read the article, it is about comments by the prime minister of the Netherlands, Mark Rutte, that Dutch fighters who join ISIS are better dead than returning to the Netherlands. According to the article he received criticism from the leader of D66, an opposition party, saying that these fighters should face persecution and the rule of law in the Netherlands.



    I wanted to know what DebatePolitics thinks, are western fighters for ISIS better of dead in the Middle East or should they face persecution back home? I can personally understand both positions and am torn between them.

    Note: Votes are public.
    Ejecting someone from the rolls of citizenship (under any circumstances) sets a very dangerous precedent; Cicero bringing the practice to Rome contributed greatly to the decline of republican principle in Roman society, and Cicero himself was killed by much the same process when his political rivals transformed Rome into an imperial state. The relationship between citizen and state is supposed to be inviolate on the state's part. Only citizens can renounce their citizenship.

    Generally speaking, citizens of Western states that are also proven enemy combatants don't need to lose their citizenship to be justifiable military targets. They are the military equivalent of armed and dangerous suspects resisting arrest; if they surrender they should be taken according to the rules of war and accorded their legal rights as citizens, but if they continue resisting, the threat they pose as enemy combatants supersedes their right to due process.

    A citizen's right to due process and rule of law is contingent on them cooperating with the state. The state has to scale the forcefulness of their efforts to detain a suspect with the degree of threat the suspect poses.
    Last edited by Morality Games; 03-07-15 at 07:47 PM.
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    Re: Are Western Fighters Who Join ISIS Better Dead or Facing Trial Back Home?

    One thing I just don't get is the reaction to people going to join ISIS, especially people from the west. Are people not welcome to do what they want to do? If people want to give up their citizenship and go join ISIS, so be it. I don't care. In fact, as far as I'm concerned, why should we treat them any differently than we treat anyone else who goes to fight for a foreign power? They become traitors, enemies of the state and open to execution. Why all the whining and crying about it?
    There is nothing demonstrably true that religion can provide the world that cannot be achieved more rationally through entirely secular means.

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    Re: Are Western Fighters Who Join ISIS Better Dead or Facing Trial Back Home?

    Quote Originally Posted by US Conservative View Post
    Better off dead, for them and us.
    That's what you would think. However, one of these sickos dying in battle could spur even more attacks and recruits for ISIS. This is the martyrdom culture that these groups thrive in, and only when absolutely necessary should ISIS members be killed. Send them to Gitmo and let them rot

  6. #16
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    Re: Are Western Fighters Who Join ISIS Better Dead or Facing Trial Back Home?

    Quote Originally Posted by dmvpolitical View Post
    That's what you would think. However, one of these sickos dying in battle could spur even more attacks and recruits for ISIS. This is the martyrdom culture that these groups thrive in, and only when absolutely necessary should ISIS members be killed. Send them to Gitmo and let them rot
    or send them to secretly sleep with the fishes. Jimmy Hoffa them



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    Re: Are Western Fighters Who Join ISIS Better Dead or Facing Trial Back Home?

    Quote Originally Posted by dmvpolitical View Post
    That's what you would think. However, one of these sickos dying in battle could spur even more attacks and recruits for ISIS. This is the martyrdom culture that these groups thrive in, and only when absolutely necessary should ISIS members be killed. Send them to Gitmo and let them rot
    Yes lets kiss them on the forehead, give them Obama-jobs, and give them a backrub. They are truly precious little treasures, aren't they? We dont want to piss them off.

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    Re: Are Western Fighters Who Join ISIS Better Dead or Facing Trial Back Home?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    One thing I just don't get is the reaction to people going to join ISIS, especially people from the west. Are people not welcome to do what they want to do? If people want to give up their citizenship and go join ISIS, so be it. I don't care. In fact, as far as I'm concerned, why should we treat them any differently than we treat anyone else who goes to fight for a foreign power? They become traitors, enemies of the state and open to execution. Why all the whining and crying about it?
    There are those amongst us (cough, liberals) who want this to be something different than what it is-enemies of the US who are absolutely subject to execution.

  9. #19
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    Re: Are Western Fighters Who Join ISIS Better Dead or Facing Trial Back Home?

    Not such a simple legal question. There is no declared state-of-war between the USA and ISIS. Does the USA even formally acknowledge that ISIS exists?

    Americans historically have fought for other militaries, other countries and other organizations from the past (such as the Flying Tigers for China) to various mercenary ventures and for other countries. People who are citizens of other countries can enlist in our military and that isn't all that rare.

    So... if someone goes to Syrian to fight against the Syrian government or against the Syrian rebels, or goes to join ISIS to fight against the Kurds or Iranians, what crime was committed against the USA?

    If an American went to Iran to fight with the Kurds against ISIS, is that illegal?

  10. #20
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    Re: Are Western Fighters Who Join ISIS Better Dead or Facing Trial Back Home?

    Quote Originally Posted by Carjosse View Post
    I was reading this article (in English) from the Netherlands. For those who do not want to read the article, it is about comments by the prime minister of the Netherlands, Mark Rutte, that Dutch fighters who join ISIS are better dead than returning to the Netherlands. According to the article he received criticism from the leader of D66, an opposition party, saying that these fighters should face persecution and the rule of law in the Netherlands.



    I wanted to know what DebatePolitics thinks, are western fighters for ISIS better of dead in the Middle East or should they face persecution back home? I can personally understand both positions and am torn between them.

    Note: Votes are public.
    If you leave to go fight for a faction that actively wants your own country dead, then you just committed treason. Dead by sites, dead by tribunal it hardly makes a difference (other than logistics).

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