View Poll Results: Should Pesticides that are detrimental to honeybees be illegal?

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Thread: Should Pesticides that are detrimental to honeybees be illegal?

  1. #41
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    Re: Should Pesticides that are detrimental to honeybees be illegal?

    Quote Originally Posted by JumpinJack View Post
    Absolutely. When I moved into my house 20 years ago, there were honeybees all over the place. There are none, now. I saw some native bees last year (they look like big flies and are black). I don't know if they pollinate, or if they pollinate the same things.
    I understand, but it's not a pesticide problem. For a couple of decades, we've been losing honeybee colonies from varroa mites, and we keep trying to come up with new and improved methods for treatment. I am an organic beekeeper- I don't put any chemical in the hives unless I am concerned that they are near-death. That hasn't happened for the past few years. What I have now, appears to be a mite-tolerant colony out in my beeyard. They have not been manipulated or re-queened for personality. They have been left to do their own breeding as per their nature. They are a hot hot hive, and will attack with little provocation. That being said, they appear to be naturally resilient and are surviving, in spite of many losses.

    Pesticides are not what is causing the honeybee decline. It's been varroa mites for years now, and there's also a not-yet-well-understood colony collapse disorder which appears problematic, but we've had pesticides around for many years, and some of them were much more lethal than what is often used nowadays.
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    Re: Should Pesticides that are detrimental to honeybees be illegal?

    Quote Originally Posted by faithful_servant View Post
    Situations that arise after the infestestation, not before.
    Yes, but that doesn't mean that nothing is done before the infestation. You are buying into the BS that insecticides are the only way to control pest damage

    It's not true

    The damage has been done or is currently happening. Smart farmers stop the damage before it takes a toll. If they wait until the damage has hit a point where it's "extreme" or "large scale", then it's usually too late.
    Which is why I did not suggest that we do wait and do nothing until the damage is extreme. Arguing that the use of insecticides should be a our first resort is like saying we should drop nukes in response to any aggression against us. Why should we wait or limit ourselves to conventional weapons if the damage might hit a point where it's extreme or large scale?

    Getting ahead and staying ahead of infestations is the only way to successfully stop them from doing great harm to the farmers crops.
    Gettting and staying ahread of infestations does not require the prophylactic use of insecticides. The premise of your position is based on a myth

    What you're proposing reminds of the year that we got cutworms in our petunias. Almost all of the flowers suddenly died in a matter of a couple days. My wife told me that I needed to I needed to spray them all, but at that point it was too late. Had hit the flowers with a good systemic spray 3 weeks prior, we would have saved our petunias.
    Spraying chemical insecticides is not the only way to deal with cutworm problems.

    For one thing, there's bt. Though it is an insecticide, it's biological and not chemical. If you sprinkle corn meal in the garden, they will eat it and it will kill them. You can make a mixture of molasses with 50% sawdust and 50% bran. Add some water and drop it in blobs around the garden. They get stuck in it and become prey for predators. You can also encourage cutworm predators (which is impossible if you spray an insecticide) such as toads, blackbirds, firefly larvae, lacewings, tachnid flies, trichogramma and braconid wasps. And you can grow plants which repel cutworms next to your flowers

    I repeat - not using insecticides does not mean doing nothing about pests,
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  3. #43
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    Re: Should Pesticides that are detrimental to honeybees be illegal?

    Quote Originally Posted by faithful_servant View Post
    Sorry, but that's simply not true.
    Actually, it is true.

    Farming Systems Trial: Overview | Rodale Institute
    http://www.independent.co.uk/environ...m-9913651.html
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organic...g#Productivity


    Oganic farms can not only be more productive, but they are more effective. Because they don't use expensive inputs like fertilizers, insecticides, herbicides, etc yet produce just as much product, their profit margin is higher. This margin is further increased by the fact that organic produce commands a higher price.

    IOW, organic farms are not only as productive, they are more profitable.

    http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...0901093715.htm
    http://www.organicagcentre.ca/Newspa...ability_jw.asp
    http://www.fao.org/3/a-ak355e.pdf

    So if organic is more profitable, then why isn't Big Ag embracing it? Read on.

    Factory farms are designed for high output, if organic was able to out-produce them, they'd be using organic. Keep in mind that my grandfather was doing sustainable, organic farming long before anyone ever thought of the term "organic"). Ha had a medium sized farm and raised chickens (eggs), cattle and sheep. He fertilized his fields using the chicken manure and rotated his fields between the cattle and the sheep to help keep them healthy. He got better yields from his livestock than anyone anywhere even vaguely close to him as a result (this was in the '50-early 70s). I've seen how that kind of farming can be done, but I also know that if it was that simple to do, then the big factory farms would be all over it. But they aren't, since it doesn't produce the results they can get from using chemical fertilizers, pest controls, etc. It's simple economics and the cold-hearted, completely amoral corps. that run these farms are going to do what works and if organic worked as you claim, they'd be all over it...
    No, big agricultural corps prefer modern agricultural practices, not because they are more productive, but because it weakens the market power of the small to medium sized farmer, makes themless dependent on skilled labor, and therefore keeps them in control of the market.

    1) Modern practices require huge investments in equipment, fertilizers, water, insecticides, herbicides, etc. Small to medium sized farms must become indebted in order to have any hope of surviving (which is why so many of them are disappearing) while leaving them no hope of outcompeting the larger farms.

    If you owned a large ag corp, wouldn't you want the industry to embrace practices that put you at a competitive advantage and lead to small farms either going out of business or being consolidated with large ag corps?

    2) Big Ag encourages the division of labor. They make it so small to medium farms can't do anything but grow the food so they have to sell what they grow to the processors....who are often owned or closely linked to the Big Ag corps. If you're a Big Ag corp that both grows and processes tomatoes, would you have the processor pay a lower price for the produce (resulting in the farms making less money and the processor making more) or would have the processor charge more?

    The latter makes the Big Ag's farms more profitable (and every other farm too) and the processor less profitable. Overall, the corp makes less money because it ends up "sharing" the total profits (of both growing and processing) with the smaller farms which it doesn't own. Big Ag corps prefer to pay the farmers less because they end with more total profits in the end. The reduction in profits from farming are more than made up by the increased profits of their processors.

    As you said, the Big Ag corps are amoral and only care about profit. However, increased production is not the only way for large corps to increase their profits. Practices which reduce the share of profits that smaller farms earn also increase their profits

    IOW, increased profits does not mean increased production. But you did hit the nail on the head with those remarks, even if it was unintentional. The takeaway is that the reason why Big Ag likes modern practices are economic and have nothing to do with them having an interest in feeding people.
    Last edited by sangha; 03-03-15 at 05:36 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
    Justice Thomas' opinions consistently contain precise, detailed constitutional analyses.
    Quote Originally Posted by jaeger19 View Post
    the vast majority of folks that need healthcare are on Medicare.. both rich and poor..

  4. #44
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    Re: Should Pesticides that are detrimental to honeybees be illegal?

    Quote Originally Posted by faithful_servant View Post
    Do you even know what the #1 wild plant pollinator is??
    No, but we're talking about domesticated food crops, not wild plants.

    But I like trivia, so why don't you tell us the answer. But first, I'll take a guess.....

    The wind.
    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
    Justice Thomas' opinions consistently contain precise, detailed constitutional analyses.
    Quote Originally Posted by jaeger19 View Post
    the vast majority of folks that need healthcare are on Medicare.. both rich and poor..

  5. #45
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    Re: Should Pesticides that are detrimental to honeybees be illegal?

    Quote Originally Posted by lizzie View Post
    I understand, but it's not a pesticide problem. For a couple of decades, we've been losing honeybee colonies from varroa mites, and we keep trying to come up with new and improved methods for treatment. I am an organic beekeeper- I don't put any chemical in the hives unless I am concerned that they are near-death. That hasn't happened for the past few years. What I have now, appears to be a mite-tolerant colony out in my beeyard. They have not been manipulated or re-queened for personality. They have been left to do their own breeding as per their nature. They are a hot hot hive, and will attack with little provocation. That being said, they appear to be naturally resilient and are surviving, in spite of many losses.

    Pesticides are not what is causing the honeybee decline. It's been varroa mites for years now, and there's also a not-yet-well-understood colony collapse disorder which appears problematic, but we've had pesticides around for many years, and some of them were much more lethal than what is often used nowadays.
    No, it's not mites. And it's not insecticides.

    It's a whole host of factors that put stress on honeybees. Those factors include both mites and insecticides but neither one can be called The Cause of the problem.
    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
    Justice Thomas' opinions consistently contain precise, detailed constitutional analyses.
    Quote Originally Posted by jaeger19 View Post
    the vast majority of folks that need healthcare are on Medicare.. both rich and poor..

  6. #46
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    Re: Should Pesticides that are detrimental to honeybees be illegal?

    Quote Originally Posted by sangha View Post
    No, but we're talking about domesticated food crops, not wild plants.

    But I like trivia, so why don't you tell us the answer. But first, I'll take a guess.....

    The wind.
    Mosquitos. But you don't hear a big hue and cry about saving them. Honeybees, OTH, have a "cachet" about them that draws people into the discussion about saving them. If you told people that they had to stop spraying in order to protect mosquitos, they'd be screaming bloody murder. But when you tell them they need to stop spraying to in order to protect honeybees, suddenly it's a different story. Odd that the mosquito populations (which are highly present in agricultural areas as well) have shown no signs of collapsing.
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    Re: Should Pesticides that are detrimental to honeybees be illegal?

    Quote Originally Posted by sangha View Post
    No, it's not mites. And it's not insecticides.

    It's a whole host of factors that put stress on honeybees. Those factors include both mites and insecticides but neither one can be called The Cause of the problem.
    Every beekeeper I know tells me that it's is the mites, since they are the one thing that has gotten worse in the last few years. The insecticide levels haven't gone up an in a lot of areas they've actually down (since the less insecticide the farm has to use, the less expense it has to pay out, a lot of large farms are re-looking at how much they use in order to save money).
    Our nation has not always lived up to its ideals, yet those ideals have never ceased to guide us. They expose our flaws, and lead us to mend them. We are the beneficiaries of the work of the generations before us and it is each generation's responsibility to continue that work. - Laura Bush

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    Re: Should Pesticides that are detrimental to honeybees be illegal?

    Quote Originally Posted by sangha View Post
    Actually, it is true.

    Farming Systems Trial: Overview | Rodale Institute
    Organic farming can feed the world if done right, scientists claim - Environment - The Independent
    Organic farming - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


    Oganic farms can not only be more productive, but they are more effective. Because they don't use expensive inputs like fertilizers, insecticides, herbicides, etc yet produce just as much product, their profit margin is higher. This margin is further increased by the fact that organic produce commands a higher price.

    IOW, organic farms are not only as productive, they are more profitable.

    Economic analysis reveals organic farming profitable long-term -- ScienceDaily
    Is organic farming more profitable?
    http://www.fao.org/3/a-ak355e.pdf

    So if organic is more profitable, then why isn't Big Ag embracing it? Read on.



    No, big agricultural corps prefer modern agricultural practices, not because they are more productive, but because it weakens the market power of the small to medium sized farmer, makes themless dependent on skilled labor, and therefore keeps them in control of the market.

    1) Modern practices require huge investments in equipment, fertilizers, water, insecticides, herbicides, etc. Small to medium sized farms must become indebted in order to have any hope of surviving (which is why so many of them are disappearing) while leaving them no hope of outcompeting the larger farms.

    If you owned a large ag corp, wouldn't you want the industry to embrace practices that put you at a competitive advantage and lead to small farms either going out of business or being consolidated with large ag corps?

    2) Big Ag encourages the division of labor. They make it so small to medium farms can't do anything but grow the food so they have to sell what they grow to the processors....who are often owned or closely linked to the Big Ag corps. If you're a Big Ag corp that both grows and processes tomatoes, would you have the processor pay a lower price for the produce (resulting in the farms making less money and the processor making more) or would have the processor charge more?

    The latter makes the Big Ag's farms more profitable (and every other farm too) and the processor less profitable. Overall, the corp makes less money because it ends up "sharing" the total profits (of both growing and processing) with the smaller farms which it doesn't own. Big Ag corps prefer to pay the farmers less because they end with more total profits in the end. The reduction in profits from farming are more than made up by the increased profits of their processors.

    As you said, the Big Ag corps are amoral and only care about profit. However, increased production is not the only way for large corps to increase their profits. Practices which reduce the share of profits that smaller farms earn also increase their profits

    IOW, increased profits does not mean increased production. But you did hit the nail on the head with those remarks, even if it was unintentional. The takeaway is that the reason why Big Ag likes modern practices are economic and have nothing to do with them having an interest in feeding people.
    Small/med. sized farms are no competition for agricorps. They wouldn't sweat them for one minute if it cost them so much as a dime.
    Our nation has not always lived up to its ideals, yet those ideals have never ceased to guide us. They expose our flaws, and lead us to mend them. We are the beneficiaries of the work of the generations before us and it is each generation's responsibility to continue that work. - Laura Bush

  9. #49
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    Re: Should Pesticides that are detrimental to honeybees be illegal?

    Quote Originally Posted by RFR View Post
    Should Pesticides that are detrimental to honeybees be illegal?
    Only if there is cost affordable alternative should such pesticides be illegal.
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    Re: Should Pesticides that are detrimental to honeybees be illegal?

    Quote Originally Posted by faithful_servant View Post
    Mosquitos. But you don't hear a big hue and cry about saving them. Honeybees, OTH, have a "cachet" about them that draws people into the discussion about saving them. If you told people that they had to stop spraying in order to protect mosquitos, they'd be screaming bloody murder. But when you tell them they need to stop spraying to in order to protect honeybees, suddenly it's a different story. Odd that the mosquito populations (which are highly present in agricultural areas as well) have shown no signs of collapsing.
    I believe that the "cachet" about honeybees is the fact that human beings like to eat.

    And I believe that you made that up about mosquitoes.

    Prove me wrong if you can.
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