View Poll Results: Has capitalism increased hatred in the human race?

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Thread: Has capitalism increased hatred in the human race?

  1. #301
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    Re: Has capitalism increased hatred in the human race?

    Quote Originally Posted by countryboy View Post
    Yes, we know libs don't care. The notion of justice is an old one, you are not talking about justice, you are talking about communism.

    The Constitution disagrees with you.
    Garbage

    Quote Originally Posted by countryboy View Post
    Of course you would say that. Many libs feel that any ideal that doesn't goosestep in unison with theirs must be "hate filled". But, like many libs, it is you who is full of hatred, you are simply projecting that hatred upon others.
    You are the one that said it is mine, not yours, get out. That is hate.

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    Re: Has capitalism increased hatred in the human race?

    Quote Originally Posted by Quag View Post
    Anything can work on a small scale. I am asking for an alternative system to capitalism that would work in modern large scale societies.
    I have earlier given some ideas on how the system that we currently have here in the U.S. can be improved.

    MildSteel puts forward suggestions for improvement here

  3. #303
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    Re: Has capitalism increased hatred in the human race?

    Quote Originally Posted by MildSteel View Post
    What I would say is that the distinctive feature of capitalism is its focus on the private ownership by the possessors of capital of the means of production. If I recall history properly, prior to capitalism, European systems were more focused on the ownership of the means of production by the persons who produced the products. In other words, a shoemaker was a person who had a shoe shop and owned the means for producing shoes. In capitalism, the capitalist owns the means of production and he employs workers to engage in production that he may have no part in. He does this for the sake of making a profit and the satisfaction of needs is incidental to this. Because it thus focuses on private ownership for the sake of making a profit in this fashion, the system has resulted in, for example, there being very very few shoe shops that produce shoes in which the person that actually makes the shoes, owns the means of production. What we see now is that shoes are make in factories that are owned by capitalists who employ workers to make the shoes. The capitalist profits by selling the shoes for more than the production costs in terms of the property, materials, equipment, and labor. Because it thus focuses on such private ownership to make a profit, as I said before it leverages greed which is based on selfishness which produces hate. It also produces vast disparities in wealth because the capitalist is primarily motivated to increase profits, which require him to keep production costs, part of which are wages to a minimum. The result is the vast income disparities that we see today. And it is of no surprise that there has been a rise in the number of hate groups that correlates with the rise in the rise in income inequality that we see in the United States.
    I will try to come at this another way for you and this conversation.

    What I am getting as is economic control (through direct ownership, governmental control, or otherwise) of property, of resources, of the means of production, and of labor all predate the advent of the Capitalism leaning Industrial Revolution. Same thing is true of inequitable distribution of wealth from the bringing products and services to an economic model. And, the same is true for the concepts of debt and profit. And, the same thing is true of employment (in our terminology) but as it applies to the workforce (in historic terminology.)

    Sure, there were plenty of examples you bring up. I do not doubt that, what I am offering you is from history we do not have concrete evidence that a higher lean to market economics in the Industrial Revolution did something for labor that had not been seen before. Also, we do not have concrete evidence that because of labor practices post this period we all of a sudden accelerated economic imbalance.

    The best for instance is both the Roman Empire and further back the various Egyptian Empires. In both, labor was organized in some regard (slavery, or control of the lowest class of worker) as a means to control production, distribution, and profit making of the few. Major developments initiated by the government, or major military movements to take over some other economy all ended up with controls to ensure few (not many) profited. In both of my examples it happens to be the government of the empire itself, but the point is control over labor and employment practice all existed in some form before. But your example does not negate the overall economic activity under these various empires where collections of wealth turned into aristocracy, and there was plenty of social and governmental turmoil and revolutions because of.

    In all cases, and to my point in all economic models, you still get collections of wealth and those that go without. There is simply no roses and sunshine view of these older economic models that everyone in those modes did well enough to survive. In just about all economic models there was still those that worked in terrible conditions for very little gain, where someone else was in control often profiting from the condition.

    Therefor hate groups, for whatever social or economic reason, always existed. Some economic models (and government types) were better than others at controlling the lowest class in order to suppress uprising. Income inequality, and even those with absolutely nothing, also existed well before the Industrial Revolution period. What the Industrial Revolution taught us was the importance of a mixed economic model that leans to market dynamics. What it did not teach us was planned economic models handle population social dynamics better, if so then all those models would not have collapsed as well (for whatever reason.)
    "Every time something really bad happens, people cry out for safety, and the government answers by taking rights away from good people." - Penn Jillette.

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    Re: Has capitalism increased hatred in the human race?

    Quote Originally Posted by Quag View Post
    Anything can work on a small scale. I am asking for an alternative system to capitalism that would work in modern large scale societies.
    No need for alternatives. Capitalism is a good model, SO LONG AS it's tightly regulated, so that all reap its rewards. And there's the rub. Conservatives hate regulation.
    Killing one person is murder, killing 100,000 is foreign policy

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    Re: Has capitalism increased hatred in the human race?

    Quote Originally Posted by MildSteel View Post
    I have earlier given some ideas on how the system that we currently have here in the U.S. can be improved.

    MildSteel puts forward suggestions for improvement here
    That links to a post about some ideas on education reform, nothing about a system other than capitalism.
    What I am asking is for you to post about alternatives to capitalism, one that can be used in a modern large scale society.
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    Re: Has capitalism increased hatred in the human race?

    Quote Originally Posted by Montecresto View Post
    No need for alternatives. Capitalism is a good model, SO LONG AS it's tightly regulated, so that all reap its rewards. And there's the rub. Conservatives hate regulation.
    The poster was talking about systems other than capitalism, I am curious as to what those systems are.
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    Re: Has capitalism increased hatred in the human race?

    Quote Originally Posted by MildSteel View Post
    No, you have missed the point. The point is that capitalism, because it leverages greed which results in selfishness, creates an environment that is conducive to the development of hate. Although I, like you, do not absorb myself in envy, I cannot claim to be free from its influence.
    So you have a problem with people being able to profit from their own labor and being able to own and operate businesses.

    And I would put forward that it is likely that you are not totally free from the influence of greed and hate. Otherwise you would be a saintly person.
    I do not hate people who profit from their labor and own and or operate businesses.There are actual legitimate reasons to hate someone.Someone making money is not a reason to hate someone.
    "A nation can survive its fools, and even the ambitious. But it cannot survive treason from within. An enemy at the gates is less formidable, for he is known and carries his banner openly. But the traitor moves amongst those within the gate freely, his sly whispers rustling through all the alleys, heard in the very halls of government itself. For the traitor appears not a traitor; he speaks in accents familiar to his victims, and he wears their face and their arguments, he appeals to the baseness that lies deep in the hearts of all men. He rots the soul of a nation, he works secretly and unknown in the night to undermine the pillars of the city, he infects the body politic so that it can no longer resist. A murder is less to fear"

    Cicero Marcus Tullius

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    Re: Has capitalism increased hatred in the human race?

    Quote Originally Posted by OrphanSlug View Post
    I will try to come at this another way for you and this conversation.

    What I am getting as is economic control (through direct ownership, governmental control, or otherwise) of property, of resources, of the means of production, and of labor all predate the advent of the Capitalism leaning Industrial Revolution. Same thing is true of inequitable distribution of wealth from the bringing products and services to an economic model. And, the same is true for the concepts of debt and profit. And, the same thing is true of employment (in our terminology) but as it applies to the workforce (in historic terminology.)

    .....

    Therefor hate groups, for whatever social or economic reason, always existed. Some economic models (and government types) were better than others at controlling the lowest class in order to suppress uprising. Income inequality, and even those with absolutely nothing, also existed well before the Industrial Revolution period. What the Industrial Revolution taught us was the importance of a mixed economic model that leans to market dynamics. What it did not teach us was planned economic models handle population social dynamics better, if so then all those models would not have collapsed as well (for whatever reason.)
    What is different in the capitalist, post Industrial Revolution era is that the spread of capitalism has resulted in an increased dependence on the capitalist class. What we see now is that instead of people being more self sufficient in terms of depending on skilled trades and farming for their subsistence, that people work for capitalists who exploit their wage labor for profit. Even a fairly recent example of my family. My grandfather did not have wealth in terms of money. He had very little. But he had a 80 acre farm that provided for his family's subsistence. He did not go to work for wages. So although there was a large disparity in terms of capital between him and a capitalist like J P Morgan, he was not dependent on the capital of someone like J P Morgan for his subsistence. These types of small farms have been replaced by large industrial farms now. Another example. In rural India, people have survived by farming, and although they did not have wealth in terms of capital, they were able to survive. They passed down seeds for thousands of years for crops like basmati rice, which is a very high quality rice. Recently such farmers were forced to use GMO seeds from Monsanto, a large agricultural corporation. As a result of not being able to afford the seeds, many farmers committed suicide

    Indian Farmers are Committing Suicide because of Monsanto's costly GMO Crops

    Monsanto’s GMO crops were supposed to feed the world hunger and starvation but instead the diverse sustainable organic agriculture was replaced with globalization, GMO crops and monopoly.

    According to a report by Daily Mail, every 30 minutes an Indian farmer commits suicide as a result of Monsanto’s GMO crops. In the last decade, more than 250,000 Indian farmers have killed themselves because of Monsanto’s costly seeds and pesticides. Globalization and monopoly have forced farmers to buy GMO seeds and since GMO crops have become pest resistant, the farmers have no choice but to purchase Monsanto’s popular herbecide.
    .....
    Indian Farmers Committing Suicide as a Result of Monsanto's GM Crops

    And again, manufacturing for things like clothing was done locally by skilled people such as shoemakers. Although they may not have been wealthy capitalists, they were able to provide for themselves, without being dependent on capitalists. Today, that would be impossible because capitalists have such vast amounts of wealth, they are able to manufacture items such as shoes in large quantities at prices that a local shoemaker cannot compete with. The result is an increased dependence on the capitalist, which makes the effects of the disparities in wealth more acute.

    So to be brief, although there were disparities in wealth, people were more self sufficient, and as a result the effects of the wealth disparities were not as acute as they are now. These effects are increasing with the passage of time, and although there have been hate groups, we are now seeing a drastic rise in their number.
    Last edited by MildSteel; 03-04-15 at 06:44 PM.

  9. #309
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    Re: Has capitalism increased hatred in the human race?

    Quote Originally Posted by Montecresto View Post
    No need for alternatives. Capitalism is a good model, SO LONG AS it's tightly regulated, so that all reap its rewards. And there's the rub. Conservatives hate regulation.
    Too little regulation is just as bad as too much regulation.
    Education.

    Sometimes I think we're alone. Sometimes I think we're not. In either case, the thought is staggering. ~ R. Buckminster Fuller

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    Re: Has capitalism increased hatred in the human race?

    Quote Originally Posted by Quag View Post
    That links to a post about some ideas on education reform, nothing about a system other than capitalism.
    What I am asking is for you to post about alternatives to capitalism, one that can be used in a modern large scale society.
    If you read what I posted carefully you will note that not only did I recommend substantial reforms in education, I also briefly touched on reform to the political system. Now I could go further with all that, but I really did not want to get into that discussion in this thread because it is a topic all of its own. Basically the problem, as I see it, is that capitalism has resulted in people with wealth having far too much influence on our political and social system. I am not a fan of government interference in markets. Such interference distorts markets and can be exploited by powerful capitalists who can use their wealth to influence the political system to their advantage. That said, since we have the current system that we have, I don't think we have much choice but to regulate markets, but that is not a very good solution, in my opinion. Rather we need to cultivate a very strong intellectual class of educators that exercises as much or more influence on the political and social system as the capitalists. This would result in less dependence on strong government regulation in markets and should mitigate some of the bad effects of capitalism. Briefly, that is the alternative idea that I would put forward.
    Last edited by MildSteel; 03-04-15 at 06:45 PM.

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