Is PEGIDA a racist movement pretending not to be?[W:143]

Re: Is PEGIDA a racist movement pretending not to be?

PoS said:

Yup. Whats disturbing is that the people who defend this group keep saying its not racist yet if you substitute blacks or Jews with what this group labels as Muslim it would be completely unacceptable by anyone yet because its Muslims they are targeting then in their minds it makes it OK. And the only reason their leader quit was because he got exposed by the German media- if it wasnt for that he would still be leading this group.

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That you believe a leader of a movement reflects on the majority of the people who take part in that movement no matter the actual values that the movement is promoting is proof that you do not follow common sense and basic human logic.

Re: Is PEGIDA a racist movement pretending not to be?

AmericanSpartan said:

Tell that to the leftist who think people wanting to protect and defend their culture, values, heritage, nation and race is a bad thing or evil

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If those people belong to a group like the KKK they are a very bad thing and evil. :roll:

The USA knows how to deal with groups like that.

Re: Is PEGIDA a racist movement pretending not to be?

Florian said:

Why can't you separate the leader from the message of the group? Have you read their platform? Do you know many people attended their rallies? You know none of these questions. And you want to deny Germans the right to free speech and demonstration by branding them racist.

Immigration to Europe must stop before it dissolves the continent.

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Do you have any idea where the human race first got started?

Here's a hint - it was south of the Mediterranean Sea. :roll:

Re: Is PEGIDA a racist movement pretending not to be?

Apocalypse said:

Atmosphere is the chanting, the signs, the opinions of the majority of the demonstrators.
The general atmosphere in an EDL demonstration is a bigoted one.
Is that the same in a PEGIDA demonstration? Doesn't seem so.





Conspiring? Who talked about conspiring. That's entirely your injection.

It's also your injection that they claimed it was racist, Angela Merkel said "Xenophobic" which is a different term.

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The word 'racism' gets thrown around too much and it's a shame. It is my opinion that they are wrong. Merkel can't be wrong? She has admitted to being wrong on many occasions so we've established the fact that she can be wrong. As to the counter protesters, what makes them right? Their numbers? Because they simply do not.

So if you wish to establish the claim that they are racist you would need to show more than some comments made by officials or a counter protest or anything like that. In order to establish the claim that the movement itself is a racist movement you'll need to point at its racist elements. I'm not going to change my mind regarding to the movement itself when I've seen nothing to indicate that it has a racist nature.

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A lot of the xenophobia on this planet has its genesis in racism and bigotry.

Re: Is PEGIDA a racist movement pretending not to be?

Apocalypse said:

What way out? :lol:
1) I answered that two posts ago. (They are wrong) 2) It's not the question in the poll.



Again with the M/E forum, that took long enough didn't it? Well no, xenophobia and racism are still not the same thing. One is advocating the hatred of anyone who is not a national and the other is advocating hatred against people on a racial basis. It's really silly to just assume that anyone who's a xenophobic person is also a racist.



So you're now saying that one can be a xenophobe without being a racist, which means that the two terms are not similar.
Consistency, is it too much to ask for?



Because they're wrong.

Why did a million people think the world is flat?

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Appealing to numbers is a very wrong approach, logically.

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Because it looks flat?

That sounds like a pretty good reason to me, even though it's 100% wrong. :roll:

Re: Is PEGIDA a racist movement pretending not to be?

Infinite Chaos said:

If you've read their manifesto, feel free to post the specific bits you are concerned about.

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"1 duty to integration....
2 zero tolerance towards criminal refugees and immigrants....
3 protection of Germany's traditionally Judeo-Christian culture....
4 Opposes parallel societies/parallel jurisdictions, for example Sharia courts, Sharia police and peace judges....
5 States that Pegida oppose.... political correctness...."

Translated:
1. immigrants must assimilate to our standards or else
2. Immigrants should be held to a higher standard of behavior than other citizens and will be punished with deportation even for minor crimes
3. Mainstream/traditional culture should be considered superior by the law
4. Unlike all other people, immigrants can't have any institutions to address conflicts or establish policies
5. Opposes using proper and/or polite terms to refer to groups of people

Re: Is PEGIDA a racist movement pretending not to be?

Florian said:

So where did the millions of Muslims in Europe come from? Of course there's high immigration.



How is it an irrational fear? Why should we not take a stand when ethnic French are decreasing in their own country? I want ethnic French to always have the right to their country.

We do not need more Muslims here, or anywhere in Europe.

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How are you going to stop the Muslim families in France from having children? Lots of children?

Fill us in. This should be interesting. :roll:

Re: Is PEGIDA a racist movement pretending not to be?

Medusa said:

bonjour monsieur :mrgreen:

dont you think it is too late to complain about this ?.

for instance why do you think there are millions of algerians in france

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?

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I believe that quite a few French people went to Algeria before many Algerians came to France. The road that comes in also goes out. :roll:

The same thing is true of other countries in Europe.

Re: Is PEGIDA a racist movement pretending not to be?

I voted yes in the poll, but I did so with some difficulty. There are undoubtedly racist elements to this group -which necessitated my 'yes vote - but it doesn't mean that many of their concerns are not genuine. I don't think it is particularly racist, for example, to expect immigrants to conform to the society that they join. And I think that in far too many instances, that doesn't happen. The number of European 'muslims' flocking to ISIS is proof that there really is no integration of these people into the general population.

Re: Is PEGIDA a racist movement pretending not to be?

Ryan5 said:

But that's just it isn't it?

From a legal perspective, EVERYTHING could technically fall under "Bigoted Against" if at all opposed. Certainly considering half the world used to be openly Communist or Nationalist, to say that Communists or Nationalists are "Evil misguided people" is to be bigoted against a far larger group of people than the global LBGT community. The idea that there exist "Good discrimination and bad discrimination" is inherently contradictory in a legal sense.

Legally speaking, an ideological movement in and of itself can't truly be discriminated against without the discriminator committing equally heinous discrimination.

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One can make accurate generalizations about people who voluntarilly align themselves with an ideology or point of view, but a similar generalization about a large group united only by nationality, religion or ethnicity is not going to be accurate.

Ie. "American conservatives want to lower taxes" is acccurate. "Older white men in American want to lower taxes" is not.

There are no laws in the USA prohibiting discriminating against someone due to their ideology in most contexts. (exception: hiring for lower level government jobs)

Re: Is PEGIDA a racist movement pretending not to be?

Infinite Chaos said:

[/Sigh]

maybe this will get through. Do you ascribe the modern Democrat party of the US to be the same as the Democrat party that was involved with the KKK?

Can you and Hatuey understand that movements may evolve and change?

Sometimes the change takes months, sometimes years..

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Sometimes it takes years of war and results in many millions of dead people like it did with the NAZI's.

Re: Is PEGIDA a racist movement pretending not to be?

matchlight said:

I don't care if PEGIDA is "racist" or not. As long as its members are against Muslim jihadists, it's fine with me. I hope at least some European nations will come to their senses and deport every Muslim troublemaker they find. Intern them, even, if necessary. Either way, they would be getting off far easier than they might have.

Muslims around the world are lucky there are no nations that are both extremely powerful and have rulers as savage as the jihadists themselves. What if the U.S., for example, instead of being a civilized nation, had a government like Germany's during the Third Reich? An attack like 9/11, which was in part an attempt to destroy the U.S. government, would have been answered with a final solution to the Islamist problem.

That probably would have consisted of using nuclear weapons to incinerate most of the world's billion-and-a-half Muslims, innocent and guilty alike, and sending all the survivors that could be caught to extermination camps.

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Basically you're talking about a world-wide nuclear war.

Well that didn't happen and I don't believe that it's going to happen. :roll:

Serenity said:

The movement was founded on racism and the founder of PEGIDA is indeed racist. PEGIDA's founder and leader (until recently) is Lutz Bachmann. The man who refers to immigrants as “cattle,” “scumbags,” “filthy,” and “trash.” The man who posted a picture of himself sporting Hitler’s distinct hairstyle, glare and toothbrush mustache with the words “He’s back!”. The same man who posted a photo of a Ku Klux Klan member with the cut line, “Three Ks a day keeps the minorities away.”

Those keen to actively protest who do have legitimate fears and concerns should be aligning themselves to a more reputable organisation. PEGIDA was founded by scum and a reasonable person should not want to be associated with trash like that.

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Islam is not a Race.

Re: Is PEGIDA a racist movement pretending not to be?

Hard Truth said:

"1 duty to integration....”
Translated: “immigrants must assimilate to our standards or else”

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Tony Blair 2006 – “immigrants have a duty to integrate”.
Julia Gillard 2012 – “immigrants have a duty to integrate”.
Standard requests made by different leaders of immigrants to their countries.

Hard Truth said:

2 “zero tolerance towards criminal refugees and immigrants....”
Translated: Immigrants should be held to a higher standard of behavior than other citizens and will be punished with deportation even for minor crimes

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Most countries have a zero tolerance to immigrants who commit crime and this goes for refugees and immigrants. Unless an immigrant has won citizenship then they can quickly be deported if they start routinely engaging in criminal activity. I’m going to take a wild guess that in the US, a budding citizen can have their citizenship process halted and ended if they start committing crimes.

Hard Truth said:

3 “protection of Germany's traditionally Judeo-Christian culture....”
Translated: “Mainstream/traditional culture should be considered superior by the law”

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Some countries have constitutions that enshrine a nation’s values, some ask for specific values to be taught at school and these are based on a particular type of culture. I can see how the above easily relates to muslim culture and how this would fit in with German culture but on the other hand – is the phrase “when in Rome” now a cover for racism? A request that particular values may be upheld and that incomers are asked to respect or integrate into?

Hard Truth said:

4 “Opposes parallel societies/parallel jurisdictions, for example Sharia courts, Sharia police and peace judges....”
Translation: Unlike all other people, immigrants can't have any institutions to address conflicts or establish policies

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I’ve been lambasted over the years on Debate Politics forum for upholding the right of muslims to live by Sharia that fits within national civil law and does not discriminate. So I’m very familiar with the pro and anti argument. If by parallel, what is asked for is outside German or any national law then that should not happen. I am never going to support any parallel police and there have been attempted “muslim patrols” in Belgium, the UK and other parts of Europe. Do you think requesting this does not happen in Germany is a racist thing or simple common sense?

Hard Truth said:

5 “States that Pegida oppose.... political correctness...."
Translated: “Opposes using proper and/or polite terms to refer to groups of people

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The bar for anti-immigrant status seems quite low by this and the rest of your selected elements / worries.

Are you sure you really read the PEGIDA constitution?

Re: Is PEGIDA a racist movement pretending not to be?

shrubnose said:

Because it looks flat?

That sounds like a pretty good reason to me, even though it's 100% wrong. :roll:

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What..?

Re: Is PEGIDA a racist movement pretending not to be?

shrubnose said:

Basically you're talking about a world-wide nuclear war.

Well that didn't happen and I don't believe that it's going to happen. :roll:

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I never suggested it would. I said it was damned lucky for all Muslims that there is no nation which has both the military power of the United States and a government as brutal as the jihadists themselves--for example the government of Nazi Germany. If there were, I think it's clear that nation would long ago have done just what I described. You may recoil from that, but I think it's undeniably true. Can anyone really believe that a government which was every bit as murderous as the worst members of ISIS or Al Qaeda, and had control of the six thousand or so hydrogen bombs the U.S. has, would not use them against any group of people it was opposed to? The innocence or guilt of particular members of the group would not even be a consideration--it would be "kill them all."

What standard of morality a nation should hold itself to in a serious fight against a brutal enemy is not an idle question, or a new one. It came up again and again during World War Two. Churchill, for example, in considering whether the anthrax bombs the U.S. had produced should be dropped on German cities, questioned whether Britain could afford always to be bound by moral constraints when fighting people like the Nazis. Also, serious consideration was given to plastering Iwo Jima with poison gas, so that U.S. forces could just wait for it to do its work on the 21,000 defenders and then walk in unopposed. Neither of these things was done--and yet neither Truman nor Churchill ever even questioned whether the atomic bomb should be used on Japan.

Re: Is PEGIDA a racist movement pretending not to be?

shrubnose said:

A lot of the xenophobia on this planet has its genesis in racism and bigotry.

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Do you know what bigotry is? Of course it would be rooted in bigotry.
To claim that all of the xenophobes are racists is untrue.

Re: Is PEGIDA a racist movement pretending not to be?

Apocalypse said:

Do you know what bigotry is? Of course it would be rooted in bigotry.

To claim that all of the xenophobes are racists is untrue.

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I haven't said that all xenophobes are racists, but I'll stick with my statement that some of them are racists.

Oh, and some of them are bigots and some of them are bigoted racists.

Re: Is PEGIDA a racist movement pretending not to be?

shrubnose said:

I haven't said that all xenophobes are racists

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Then you agree with me and I do not see any room for an argument.

Re: Is PEGIDA a racist movement pretending not to be?

Apocalypse said:

That you believe a leader of a movement reflects on the majority of the people who take part in that movement no matter the actual values that the movement is promoting is proof that you do not follow common sense and basic human logic.

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Well with that logic you must believe that the National Socialists werent so bad without Hitler then... :doh

Re: Is PEGIDA a racist movement pretending not to be?

PoS said:

Well with that logic you must believe that the National Socialists werent so bad without Hitler then... :doh

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The National Socialists party was a political group following an ideology. This ideology had promoted values such as racism. PEGIDA is a movement. The movement is not promoting immoral values such as racism or xenophobia. It's a movement against radicalism in Islam and its effects on Western societies. The people who take part in that movement cannot be labeled as racist merely because the previous leader and founder was. This is illogical, this is stupid.

Re: Is PEGIDA a racist movement pretending not to be?

Hatuey said:

Yes, yes, there are their demands, and there are the ideas behind the people who created them. Do you believe that given their former leader's/founder's views on immigration, they are masquerading as something they are not? For example, their founder doesn't seem to be a fan of the Judeo part of Judeo-Christian culture but they claim to be supported of protecting the aforementioned. Do you believe that is disingenuous at all?

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The alleged statements or alleged actions by an individual does not mean the whole group is that way. I say alleged because anti-illegal immigration groups, anti-loose immigration standards groups, anti-open borders groups and groups that are opposed to letting in individuals who do not assimilate are often painted by the opposition as racists,xenophobes and etc.Most of these pro-open borders, pro-illegal immigration groups are so dishonest they will find a racist or even use a shill pretending to be part of the group in order to paint the whole entire group as racists. For example in this country the Minute Men which has black, white,Hispanic members and so on are painted at racist xenophobic vigilantes by the pro-illegals side.Heck even Tea Party republicans regular establishment republicans are painted as racists. So I am suspicious when globalists,internationalists, pro-amnesty,pro-illegal immigration and other similar individuals and a biased media on their side is painting a group opposed to unrestricted immigration as racists.

Re: Is PEGIDA a racist movement pretending not to be?

There is a huge difference between immigration to the USA (or Australia or Canada or South America etc) in that this is our native country. Why do people insist we must take in immigrants when they cause so much trouble?

Re: Is PEGIDA a racist movement pretending not to be?

Apocalypse said:

The National Socialists party was a political group following an ideology. This ideology had promoted values such as racism. PEGIDA is a movement. The movement is not promoting immoral values such as racism or xenophobia. It's a movement against radicalism in Islam and its effects on Western societies. The people who take part in that movement cannot be labeled as racist merely because the previous leader and founder was. This is illogical, this is stupid.

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Get your facts straight.

This is from The Nazi...er...Pegida's UK Facebook page:

'Patriotic Europeans against the Islamisation of the west.'

https://www.facebook.com/pegida.uk


Islamisation...that means ALL who are Islamic, not just radicals.

And to be against an entire religion IS xenophobic and prejudicial.


Please stop wasting everyone's time defending an organization that you clearly know little about and are just glorifying in your own mind.

And someone who glorifies a xenophobic and prejudicial organization speaks volumes about that person, Imo.

Re: Is PEGIDA a racist movement pretending not to be?

DA60 said:

Get your facts straight.

This is from The Nazi...er...Pegida's UK Facebook page:

'Patriotic Europeans against the Islamisation of the west.'

https://www.facebook.com/pegida.uk


Islamisation...that means ALL who are Islamic, not just radicals.

And to be against an entire religion IS xenophobic and prejudicial.


Please stop wasting everyone's time defending an organization that you clearly know little about and are just glorifying in your own mind.

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I'm sorry but all you did is to expose how amazingly ignorant you are of terms such as "Islamization" and "xenophobia".

First of all Xenophobia is the hatred of non-nationals, of foreigners, not of a religion. It's stupid to say that it is.

Regarding Islamization, you claim that it refers to the entire religion of Islam and that's just wrong;

Islamization (also spelled Islamisation, see spelling differences; Arabic: أسلمة‎ aslamah) or Islamification (pejorative Muhammadization) is the process of a society's shift towards Islam, such as found in Sudan, Pakistan, Iran, Malaysia, or Algeria.[1] In contemporary usage, it may refer to the perceived imposition of an Islamist social and political system on a society with an indigenously different social and political background.

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Islamization - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

So let me be as clear as possible; being against the Islamization of Europe is not in any way Islamophobic, Xenophobic, Racist, Homophobic, Sexist, or whatever term you may ignorantly affiliate with it. Anyone reading this thread should really do himself a favor and ask himself if PEGIDA - as a movement - is actually racist. They should not waste their time on your comments since you clearly show a complete lack of understanding of basic terms.