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Is PEGIDA a racist movement pretending not to be?[W:143]

Is PEGIDA a racist movement pretending not to be?


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Re: Is PEGIDA a racist movement pretending not to be?

So where did the millions of Muslims in Europe come from? Of course there's high immigration.



How is it an irrational fear? Why should we not take a stand when ethnic French are decreasing in their own country? I want ethnic French to always have the right to their country. We do not need more Muslims here, or anywhere in Europe.
bonjour monsieur :mrgreen:

dont you think it is too late to complain about this ?. for instance why do you think there are millions of algerians in france ?
 
Re: Is PEGIDA a racist movement pretending not to be?

allowing muslim immigrants in European countries to open sharia courts doesn't make the West look more tolerant and respectful to the democratic values ,freedom of religion ,human rights etc.but it more likely creates a discrimination against different groups of people from different backgrounds.letting people be judged based on sharia laws or other laws isnt democracy

So you are against arbitration as well? How about Jewish courts which have been legal for centuries? How about Christian courts? yea there are a few of those around,.. you know when deeply religious people go to their priest for advice and he lays down the law... like denying divorce.
 
Re: Is PEGIDA a racist movement pretending not to be?

If it is a racist movement, so what?


In a legal technicality sense, racist movements of all colors should be protected under the law the same way Gay or LGBT movements are. The hypocrisy here is astounding.


If Communists want to rally, so what?

If Nazis want to rally, so what?

If Black Nationalists want to rally, so what?

If Gays want to rally, so what?


They should all be afforded the same rights. The LGBT movements around the world are just as extreme in their demands as other movements if not more so. It's wrong and I believe that in the future all manner of groups will have equal rights, something movements such as the LGBT and others will find galling in the end.
 
Re: Is PEGIDA a racist movement pretending not to be?

So you are against arbitration as well? How about Jewish courts which have been legal for centuries? How about Christian courts? yea there are a few of those around,.. you know when deeply religious people go to their priest for advice and he lays down the law... like denying divorce.

yes I know but I believe in law rules that are regulated according to the social circumstances
 
Re: Is PEGIDA a racist movement pretending not to be?

....Our nations belong to us and are home for one culture, our own, and we have the right and obligation to keep out groups and people who would subvert and destroy our culture, values, and way of life.

That is the bigot's creed summarized succinctly. Despite the USA's ugly history, that belief is un-American in spirit and is even contrary to the beliefs of our nation's founding fathers, even though many of them were slave owning, sexist hypocrites.
 
Re: Is PEGIDA a racist movement pretending not to be?

the fact it eventually became a racist organisation does not blur that its inception was from a legitimate concern....

You can say the same about every extremist or bigoted organization or movement. The concern might be legitimate, but their proposed solution to the concern is based on bigotry.
 
Re: Is PEGIDA a racist movement pretending not to be?

It couldn't possibly be because they associate with far right groups and engage in violence. There must be a conspiracy.

Did my use of past tense escape you? The EDL did not start out as a racist organisation, it had sikh, jewish, black and other members. If it helps, I will repeat myself - combat 18 and similar other groups were attracted in and there were street fights and confrontations.
If your comment was aimed at PEGIDA, there have been no records of mass violence. There may be fringe elements and fringe violence but PEGIDA rallies in Germany have mostly if not all been peaceful. There were scuffles at today's march in Newcastle but there were British National Front and other fringe groups also present - as well as anti groups labeling PEGIDA as racist / scum / islamophobics etc.

-- Sorry... What? Look. My question isn't about whether you believe their concerns are legitimate or not. As a matter of fact, I couldn't care less whether you support or don't support them. My question regards whether they are a racist organization pretending to be something else. As it stands, the leaders of PEGIDA have shown themselves to lean towards being racists. That alone should raise some serious flags about whether the organization is or isn't racist. Do you disagree?

I disagree for grounds already stated. PEGIDA is largely a movement which contains a variety of opinions and feelings -

A government minister has now, controversially, met Pegida supporters to discuss their concerns. But those supporters, not to mention the leadership, have wildly divergent opinions.
Some believe there's no place for "foreigners" in Germany. Some are right-wing extremists. Others just want a public debate about immigration.
And, without strong and consistent leadership, it is that lack of cohesion that, critics predict, will prove fatal for this movement. Link.

-- Then there are the people who support both PEGIDA and Golden Dawn:

519182.png.indyscaled.jpg
I didn't say they were racist --

Don't be coy - why else would you specifically include pictures from Golden Dawn and other such parties and then claim these are the people who support PEGIDA and Golden Dawn as if they are the only supporters?

It's like showing some KKK members who support some random grid iron team and being cute about saying all that team's support are KKK members.

You can say the same about every extremist or bigoted organization or movement. The concern might be legitimate, but their proposed solution to the concern is based on bigotry.

Again, timeline is important - are you claiming the proposed solution or request at the inception of the EDL or once the extremists and British nazi movement had infiltrated?
 
Re: Is PEGIDA a racist movement pretending not to be?

....Pegida - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Affirms the right of asylum for war refugees and politically persecuted people.
Advocates to include in the German constitution a right and duty to integration.
Advocates for decentralized housing of refugees.
Suggests creation of a central refugee agency for a fair allocation of immigrants among countries of the European Union.
Demands a decrease in the number of asylum seekers per social worker from currently 200:1.
Suggests to model German immigration policies after those of the Netherlands and Switzerland and demands an increased budget for the Federal Office for Migration and Refugees to speed up processing of applications.
Demands an increase in funding for the police.
Demands implementation of all asylum laws including expulsion.
Mentions zero tolerance towards criminal refugees and immigrants.
States that Pegida oppose a misogynic and violent political ideology, but does not oppose assimilated and politically moderate Muslims.[31]
Supports immigration as in Switzerland, Canada, Australia and South Africa.
Pegida demonstration on 12 January 2015
States that Pegida support sexual self-determination (opposing "early sexualization of children"[32]).
Argues for the protection of Germany's traditionally Judeo-Christian culture.
Supports the introduction of referenda as in Switzerland.
Opposes weapon export to radical and non-permitted groups, such as the PKK.
Opposes parallel societies/parallel jurisdictions, for example Sharia courts, Sharia police and peace judges.
States that Pegida oppose gender mainstreaming, and political correctness.
Indicates that Pegida oppose any radicalism, whether religious or politically motivated.
Says that Pegida oppose hate speech, regardless of religion.

That manifesto is a sanitized soft sell for bigotry. It is based on the assumption that the majority is threatened by outsiders and that those outsiders do not have a right to influence the politics and culture of the place where they live.
 
Re: Is PEGIDA a racist movement pretending not to be?

...One is advocating the hatred of anyone who is not a national and the other is advocating hatred against people on a racial basis. It's really silly to just assume that anyone who's a xenophobic person is also a racist..

So what? Xenophobia, homophobia, nationalism and racism are all forms of bigotry driven by by bogus or exagerated fear of the "others." They are all equally inaccurate, extreme and dangerous.
 
Re: Is PEGIDA a racist movement pretending not to be?

So what? Xenophobia, homophobia, nationalism

So nothing, I was debating mere definitions not what's better than what.
 
Re: Is PEGIDA a racist movement pretending not to be?

If it is a racist movement, so what?


In a legal technicality sense, racist movements of all colors should be protected under the law the same way Gay or LGBT movements are. The hypocrisy here is astounding.


If Communists want to rally, so what?

If Nazis want to rally, so what?

If Black Nationalists want to rally, so what?

If Gays want to rally, so what?


They should all be afforded the same rights. The LGBT movements around the world are just as extreme in their demands as other movements if not more so. It's wrong and I believe that in the future all manner of groups will have equal rights, something movements such as the LGBT and others will find galling in the end.

I don't want to use the government to suppress bigot's right to free expression. I think it is best to allow them to speak freely so that their true opinions are exposed. However, the fools should be corrected, exposed and mocked. At times they should be opposed by speaking out, doing boycotts and protesting. At other times it is best to ignore and marginalize them as the small number of extremist idiots that they are. If and when they gain enough power and start implementing discrimination and begin their attacks, they need to be imprisoned or killed and their efforts sabotaged.
 
Re: Is PEGIDA a racist movement pretending not to be?

I don't want to use the government to suppress bigot's right to free expression. I think it is best to allow them to speak freely so that their true opinions are exposed. However, the fools should be corrected, exposed and mocked. At times they should be opposed by speaking out, boycotts and protesting. At other times it is best to ignore and marginalize them as the small number of extremist idiots that they are.


Okay I accept that's your position. Now I'm going to do something that you won't like but is very accurate and shows your hypocrisy. Understand I get what you mean though, ultimately.


( This is just an example) You- "I don't want to use the government to suppress Gays right to free expression. I think it is best to allow them to speak freely so that their true opinions are exposed. However, the gays should be corrected, exposed and mocked. At times Gays should be opposed by speaking out, boycotts and protesting. At other times it is best to ignore and marginalize them as the small number of extremist Gays that they are."



Now do you see what I mean? Flip a few words around and you sound like you're very much oppressing the very type of minority movements you claim to want to protect. Just because you disagree with them doesn't make their movements somehow worthy of discrimination just as Gays shouldn't be discriminated against just because they're gay, nor should a Nazi, Black Nationalist or Communist.
 
Re: Is PEGIDA a racist movement pretending not to be?

....Again, timeline is important - are you claiming the proposed solution or request at the inception of the EDL or once the extremists and British nazi movement had infiltrated?

If they consider immigrants or any other particular group to be the problem, they are bigots.
 
Re: Is PEGIDA a racist movement pretending not to be?

Okay I accept that's your position. Now I'm going to do something that you won't like but is very accurate and shows your hypocrisy. Understand I get what you mean though, ultimately.


( This is just an example) You- "I don't want to use the government to suppress Gays right to free expression. I think it is best to allow them to speak freely so that their true opinions are exposed. However, the gays should be corrected, exposed and mocked. At times Gays should be opposed by speaking out, boycotts and protesting. At other times it is best to ignore and marginalize them as the small number of extremist Gays that they are."



Now do you see what I mean? Flip a few words around and you sound like you're very much oppressing the very type of minority movements you claim to want to protect. Just because you disagree with them doesn't make their movements somehow worthy of discrimination just as Gays shouldn't be discriminated against just because they're gay, nor should a Nazi, Black Nationalist or Communist.

I don't have a problem with people using those strategies to oppose anything or anyone they don't like because those techniques are all within the realm of free expression. I don't buy the claim that being being opposed to bigotry and bigots makes me a bigot. But if you want to claim that I am bigoted against nationalists, racists and other bigots I don't mind.
 
Re: Is PEGIDA a racist movement pretending not to be?

If they consider immigrants or any other particular group to be the problem, they are bigots.

[/Sigh]

maybe this will get through. Do you ascribe the modern Democrat party of the US to be the same as the Democrat party that was involved with the KKK?

Can you and Hatuey understand that movements may evolve and change? Sometimes the change takes months, sometimes years..
 
Re: Is PEGIDA a racist movement pretending not to be?

[/Sigh]

maybe this will get through. Do you ascribe the modern Democrat party of the US to be the same as the Democrat party that was involved with the KKK?

Can you and Hatuey understand that movements may evolve and change? Sometimes the change takes months, sometimes years..

Based on their manifesto, they still seem to consider immigrants a problem. My impression is that they are just watering down their tone and language to broaden their appeal, yet it is still based on an excessive sense of entitlement, exagerated fears and bigotry. A better comparison is the way David Duke expressed himself during his more recent runs for office.
 
Re: Is PEGIDA a racist movement pretending not to be?

Based on their manifesto, they still seem to consider immigrants a problem --

If you've read their manifesto, feel free to post the specific bits you are concerned about.

As I posted (post 2) in response to the OP, a Mod (German Guy) has posted a full critique and discussion on the movement. He is not a nazi, does not feel immigrants a re a problem and has examined PEGIDA as it was. Obviously in 6 months or 100 years as in the Democrats, things may have changed
 
Re: Is PEGIDA a racist movement pretending not to be?

I don't care if PEGIDA is "racist" or not. As long as its members are against Muslim jihadists, it's fine with me. I hope at least some European nations will come to their senses and deport every Muslim troublemaker they find. Intern them, even, if necessary. Either way, they would be getting off far easier than they might have.

Muslims around the world are lucky there are no nations that are both extremely powerful and have rulers as savage as the jihadists themselves. What if the U.S., for example, instead of being a civilized nation, had a government like Germany's during the Third Reich? An attack like 9/11, which was in part an attempt to destroy the U.S. government, would have been answered with a final solution to the Islamist problem. That probably would have consisted of using nuclear weapons to incinerate most of the world's billion-and-a-half Muslims, innocent and guilty alike, and sending all the survivors that could be caught to extermination camps.
 
Re: Is PEGIDA a racist movement pretending not to be?

Looks like one of those things that didn't start off as racist and only against Islamic fundamentalism taking root in their communities, and then things went left.....or should I say right?

I voted "yes."
 
Re: Is PEGIDA a racist movement pretending not to be?

yes I know but I believe in law rules that are regulated according to the social circumstances

which is what arbitration is... and what Sharia law is in the west, because it is basic contract and arbitration law. Hence people using sharia law are no different than a couple using arbitration to solve a divorce or a company using contracts to dictate what should be done in a dispute. If they disagree.. hello normal legal system, which is always above any Sharia law, or Halakhah law and so on.

The problem is that people actually think that Sharia law is being practised in its fullest which is ridiculous in any modern western society.. hell even in most modern Islamic countries. But that does not mean that aspects of Sharia law are not just common sense or full acceptable in even a Christian or Jewish country.. because guess what, both faiths have similar restrictions. Hell I would claim that Jewish law on things like divorce are far far worse than anything in Islamic law.
 
Re: Is PEGIDA a racist movement pretending not to be?

which is what arbitration is... and what Sharia law is in the west, because it is basic contract and arbitration law. Hence people using sharia law are no different than a couple using arbitration to solve a divorce or a company using contracts to dictate what should be done in a dispute. If they disagree.. hello normal legal system, which is always above any Sharia law, or Halakhah law and so on.

The problem is that people actually think that Sharia law is being practised in its fullest which is ridiculous in any modern western society.. hell even in most modern Islamic countries. But that does not mean that aspects of Sharia law are not just common sense or full acceptable in even a Christian or Jewish country.. because guess what, both faiths have similar restrictions. Hell I would claim that Jewish law on things like divorce are far far worse than anything in Islamic law.





of course ,when compared to kosher laws .:mrgreen:.I know torah is both similar to Qoran and different than Qoran in many aspects

but you know no western democracy(!) is ruled by religious laws while muslim countries are . for instance there isnt any possibility of any church state being founded ,agree ? this practice reminds me of the ottoman empire's court system and my secular tendencies dont let me understand it
 
Re: Is PEGIDA a racist movement pretending not to be?

I don't care if PEGIDA is "racist" or not. As long as its members are against Muslim jihadists, it's fine with me. I hope at least some European nations will come to their senses and deport every Muslim troublemaker they find. Intern them, even, if necessary. Either way, they would be getting off far easier than they might have.

Muslims around the world are lucky there are no nations that are both extremely powerful and have rulers as savage as the jihadists themselves. What if the U.S., for example, instead of being a civilized nation, had a government like Germany's during the Third Reich? An attack like 9/11, which was in part an attempt to destroy the U.S. government, would have been answered with a final solution to the Islamist problem. That probably would have consisted of using nuclear weapons to incinerate most of the world's billion-and-a-half Muslims, innocent and guilty alike, and sending all the survivors that could be caught to extermination camps.

Well, that is the same attitude that got us the Taliban and Al Qaida for example. The enemy of our enemy (if Muslims are our enemy) is not our friend. We can fight jihadists without accepting or working with racists.
 
Re: Is PEGIDA a racist movement pretending not to be?

This Pegida supporter possibly hadn't seen a real horse before. He doesn't seem friendly toward it.

B-87B6XW8AAUBBP.jpg:large
 
Re: Is PEGIDA a racist movement pretending not to be?

Well, that is the same attitude that got us the Taliban and Al Qaida for example. The enemy of our enemy (if Muslims are our enemy) is not our friend. We can fight jihadists without accepting or working with racists.

Baloney. I realize it violates a leftist shibboleth to note this, but no attitude of anyone in the West had a damned thing to do with creating Muslim jihadism. It is a violent, supremacist creed that is rooted in the most orthodox texts of Islam, including the Koran. Civilized people are not to blame for the savagery these filthy sons of bitches engage in, any more than a woman is to blame for being raped because she wore a short skirt.

Next you'll be telling us that Hassan al-Banna's Muslim Brotherhood fomented riots and murdered Jews and Westerners in Cairo at the end of World War II because some Jew made a face at one of them and made him feel all icky, or that in the 1940's Ruhollah Khomeini and Mohammed Navab-Safavi organized their "Soldiers of Allah" to murder people because some mean racist made them feel invalidated.

I could not care less what any Muslim anywhere likes or does not like. If Europeans want to be the Islamists' butt boys, that's their business.
 
Re: Is PEGIDA a racist movement pretending not to be?

I don't have a problem with people using those strategies to oppose anything or anyone they don't like because those techniques are all within the realm of free expression. I don't buy the claim that being being opposed to bigotry and bigots makes me a bigot. But if you want to claim that I am bigoted against nationalists, racists and other bigots I don't mind.

But that's just it isn't it?

From a legal perspective, EVERYTHING could technically fall under "Bigoted Against" if at all opposed. Certainly considering half the world used to be openly Communist or Nationalist, to say that Communists or Nationalists are "Evil misguided people" is to be bigoted against a far larger group of people than the global LBGT community. The idea that there exist "Good discrimination and bad discrimination" is inherently contradictory in a legal sense.

Legally speaking, an ideological movement in and of itself can't truly be discriminated against without the discriminator committing equally heinous discrimination.
 
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