Is PEGIDA a racist movement pretending not to be?[W:143]

Hatuey · Feb 28, 2015

It seems like there is no part of PEGIDA that doesn't have some racial element. There are its leaders:

Who have espoused views such as these ones:

Pegida leader resigns after photograph of him posing as Adolf Hitler emerges - Telegraph

But in a series of Facebook comments reproduced by the Dresdner Morgenpost, Mr Bachmann appeared to describe immigrants and asylum-seekers as “filth”, “trash” and “brutes”.“There are no real war refugees,” he appeared to say in another post, which went on argue that any asylum-seeker who could afford to travel to Europe was not in real danger.
“I apologise sincerely to all citizens who feel offended by my posts,” Mr Bachmann said in a statement released by Pegida.
“There were inconsiderate remarks that I would not make it today. I am sorry that I have so harmed the interests of our movement.”

Then there are the people who support both PEGIDA and Golden Dawn:

It's also important to mention that the reaction to PEGIDA has been pretty strong:

Around 35,000 Germans rally in Dresden against racism and xenophobia | Reuters

"We won't permit that hate will divide us", Dresden's mayor Helma Orosz said in front of the 18th-century Frauenkirche (Church of Our Lady).Around 35,000 people attended the rally that was jointly organized by the state government of Saxony and the city of Dresden, officials said.
The movement Patriotic Europeans Against the Islamisation of the West (PEGIDA) is holding weekly rallies in Dresden with a record number of 18,000 people attending last Monday.

So with that said, do you believe PEGIDA is a racist movement pretending not to be? I made the choices Yes or No. This poll supposes that you actually know about these organizations.

Infinite Chaos · Feb 28, 2015

Re: Is PEGIDA a racist movement pretending not to be?

Hatuey said:
It seems like there is no part of PEGIDA that doesn't have some racial element --

I voted no because on those grounds you could accuse almost all political parties of being racist.

Pegida is a response from the street by people who are recognising that national governments are failing to address some popular concerns. Whether you like Pegida or not, there are legitimate concerns which are not being addressed or at worst ignored.

For anyone wishing to follow views of Pegida by a moderate German in Germany - see below.

http://www.debatepolitics.com/europe/211967-anti-islamization-protests-germany.html

Hatuey · Feb 28, 2015

Re: Is PEGIDA a racist movement pretending not to be?

Infinite Chaos said:
I voted no because on those grounds you could accuse almost all political parties of being racist.

Pegida is a response from the street by people who are recognising that national governments are failing to address some popular concerns. Whether you like Pegida or not, there are legitimate concerns which are not being addressed or at worst ignored.

For anyone wishing to follow views of Pegida by a moderate German in Germany - see below.

http://www.debatepolitics.com/europe/211967-anti-islamization-protests-germany.html

PEGIDA is a one issue sort of movement. That's why I didn't really group it with parties. Secondly, let's take a look at accusing people of being racist. I'm not, I asked a question based on different 3 key of any organization: It's leadership, it's associations and the reaction from the populace.

chad1389 · Feb 28, 2015

Re: Is PEGIDA a racist movement pretending not to be?

It's a group of people tired of living in fear of being gunned down or blown up, for their beliefs or right to express them, by those in the Islamic regime who are threatening Western society and their way of life by:

-Immigrating in mass numbers
-preaching radical views
-carrying out the darkest forms of those views
-using their views as a means to justify those actions

Low birth rates of westerners mixed with mass migration and the fact that Sharia Law courts and "no-go zones" exist in Europe (look it up. Even Islamists will tell you that cops do not go there) equals rise in groups like PEGIDA. As long as birth rates continue to go down and attacks continue to go up, these groups will exist. Those who hate the race and not the "religion" will use the group as a means to express themselves, and they will be the poster children for the reasons the group should not exist. That is not uncommon. every political party has those candidates who are constantly used in the same way. What people are doing to this group and others like it, such as use the bad apples to condemn it, are exactly what they're doing to Islam. Is the group racist? No. Is it becoming that way? Yes. As more and more just become angry over terrorism, they will begin to blame the race the ideology most grips. That is how this group will ultimately destroy itself.

Hatuey · Feb 28, 2015

Re: Is PEGIDA a racist movement pretending not to be?

chad1389 said:
It's a group of people tired of living in fear of being gunned down or blown up, for their beliefs or right to express them, by those in the Islamic regime who are threatening Western society and their way of life by:

-Immigrating in mass numbers
-preaching radical views
-carrying out the darkest forms of those views
-using their views as a means to justify those actions

Low birth rates of westerners mixed with mass migration and the fact that Sharia Law courts and "no-go zones" exist in Europe (look it up. Even Islamists will tell you that cops do not go there) equals rise in groups like PEGIDA. As long as birth rates continue to go down and attacks continue to go up, these groups will exist. Those who hate the race and not the "religion" will use the group as a means to express themselves, and they will be the poster children for the reasons the group should not exist. That is not uncommon. every political party has those candidates who are constantly used in the same way. What people are doing to this group and others like it, such as use the bad apples to condemn it, are exactly what they're doing to Islam. Is the group racist? No. Is it becoming that way? Yes. As more and more just become angry over terrorism, they will begin to blame the race the ideology most grips. That is how this group will ultimately destroy itself.

I stopped reading right around here. You were making a point, then you descended into debunked nonsense. I'll implore that you actually do some research on these supposed no-go zones before you address me again. I refuse to put up with uninformed people.

chad1389 · Feb 28, 2015

Re: Is PEGIDA a racist movement pretending not to be?

Hatuey said:
I stopped reading right around here. You were making a point, then you descended into debunked nonsense. I'll implore that you actually do some research on these supposed no-go zones before you address me again. I refuse to put up with uninformed people.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/29/magazine/29Birth-t.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wIy8snQrpYU

if you do not wish to do your own research that is not my problem.

Hatuey · Feb 28, 2015

Re: Is PEGIDA a racist movement pretending not to be?

chad1389 said:
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/29/magazine/29Birth-t.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wIy8snQrpYU

if you do not wish to do your own research that is not my problem.

Oh for ****s sake....

snopes.com: Sharia Law Muslim 'No-Go' Zones

View attachment 67181147

Four enduring myths about Muslims debunked - The Globe and Mail

Myth #1: The Muslim population in the West is growing fast and will soon become a majority in Europe – and a major presence in other parts of the world.

The facts: Muslim population in 2012, proportionate to total population

Europe: 44 million (6 per cent)
United States: 2.6 million (0.8 per cent)
Canada: 940,000 (2.8 per cent)
The facts: Muslim population in 2030, proportionate to total population

Europe (including Russia): 58 million (8 per cent )
United States:6.2 million (1.7 per cent)
Canada:2.7 million (6.6 per cent)

Myth #2: Islamic beliefs lead to higher birth rates.

The facts: Fertility rates across Muslim-majority countries

1995: 4.3 children per family
2010: 2.9 children per family
2035: 2.3 children per family
The facts: Muslim birth rates in:

Iran: 1.7 children
Turkey:2.15 children
United Arab Emirates: 1.9 children
Lebanon:1.86 children

Cut your nonsense out and get informed. It will do wonders for you to stop listening to RT. Now go and putrefy a different thread with your debunked nonsense.

chad1389 · Feb 28, 2015

Re: Is PEGIDA a racist movement pretending not to be?

It's only false in the sense that Muslims control the area. It is not false in the sense that cops do not go there out of fear. It is a "no-go zone." Not a "controlled zone." A cop could enter the area, but they are faced with opposition, which is why most crime goes unsolved or not even addressed. Government looks the other way.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L6XQD0BxxcE

And citing Muslim birth rates in non European countries means nothing. PEGIDA is not concerned with the birth rates of those in the middle east. Just those in their own country.

Apocalypse · Feb 28, 2015

Re: Is PEGIDA a racist movement pretending not to be?

Are one or more of those who lead that movement - a racist? Obviously.
Are there racists who take part in that movement's demonstrations? Naturally.
Are the ideas the movement is promoting - racist ideas? Not at all.

I've watched a video from one of the demonstrations, one of the leaders was standing there saying that they don't have to fear radical Islam anymore and how they do not advocate any action against non-radical Muslims and only have a problem with the radical Muslims.
So labeling such movement as racist seems to be wrong.

Serenity · Feb 28, 2015

Re: Is PEGIDA a racist movement pretending not to be?

The movement was founded on racism and the founder of PEGIDA is indeed racist. PEGIDA's founder and leader (until recently) is Lutz Bachmann. The man who refers to immigrants as “cattle,” “scumbags,” “filthy,” and “trash.” The man who posted a picture of himself sporting Hitler’s distinct hairstyle, glare and toothbrush mustache with the words “He’s back!”. The same man who posted a photo of a Ku Klux Klan member with the cut line, “Three Ks a day keeps the minorities away.”

Those keen to actively protest who do have legitimate fears and concerns should be aligning themselves to a more reputable organisation. PEGIDA was founded by scum and a reasonable person should not want to be associated with trash like that.

AmericanSpartan · Feb 28, 2015

Re: Is PEGIDA a racist movement pretending not to be?

Hatuey said:
I stopped reading right around here. You were making a point, then you descended into debunked nonsense. I'll implore that you actually do some research on these supposed no-go zones before you address me again. I refuse to put up with uninformed people.

Yeah I take the words of people live near the no go zone over people like you who claim they do not exist...

AmericanSpartan · Feb 28, 2015

Re: Is PEGIDA a racist movement pretending not to be?

chad1389 said:
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/29/magazine/29Birth-t.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wIy8snQrpYU

if you do not wish to do your own research that is not my problem.

Chad, he is the person that hates Western peoples, and the cultures we have created, he thinks that anyone has the right to claim nations, lands, cultures, ect and we are bad for saying "No, this is ours, you will not be allowed in".

chad1389 · Feb 28, 2015

Re: Is PEGIDA a racist movement pretending not to be?

AmericanSpartan said:
Chad, he is the person that hates Western peoples, and the cultures we have created, he thinks that anyone has the right to claim nations, lands, cultures, ect and we are bad for saying "No, this is ours, you will not be allowed in".

He just asked a question.

AmericanSpartan · Feb 28, 2015

Re: Is PEGIDA a racist movement pretending not to be?

Serenity said:
The movement was founded on racism and the founder of PEGIDA is indeed racist. PEGIDA's founder and leader (until recently) is Lutz Bachmann. The man who refers to immigrants as “cattle,” “scumbags,” “filthy,” and “trash.” The man who posted a picture of himself sporting Hitler’s distinct hairstyle, glare and toothbrush mustache with the words “He’s back!”. The same man who posted a photo of a Ku Klux Klan member with the cut line, “Three Ks a day keeps the minorities away.”

Those keen to actively protest who do have legitimate fears and concerns should be aligning themselves to a more reputable organisation. PEGIDA was founded by scum and a reasonable person should not want to be associated with trash like that.

So because he wants to protect his people, culture, values, nation, and their future that makes him "scum" or them "trash"? Wow, very "tolerant" of you.

AmericanSpartan · Feb 28, 2015

Re: Is PEGIDA a racist movement pretending not to be?

chad1389 said:
He just asked a question.

That might be the case but I know people like him, they claim we do not own our culture, nations, history, ect....

Hatuey · Feb 28, 2015

Re: Is PEGIDA a racist movement pretending not to be?

AmericanSpartan said:
Yeah I take the words of people live near the no go zone over people like you who claim they do not exist...

These people?

Birmingham Mayor: ‘No-Go’ Zone Label Is ‘Totally Unfair’ | Here & Now

The Lord Mayor of Birmingham, Councillor Shafique Shah, responded to the comments in a conversation with Here & Now’s Jeremy Hobson.

“I think for someone to make comments like that about Birmingham is totally unfair,” Shah said. “Birmingham is a great city, it’s a very diverse city, and here we have people from all sorts of backgrounds and religions… It’s a place where people don’t just tolerate each other, but build friendships.”

Though offended, Councillor Shah sees a silver lining. In response to the accusation, citizens of Birmingham came together to defend their home. “In a way,” Councillor Shah said, “it’s brought people of Birmingham together. They are very proud to be a British citizen and also very proud to belong to a Muslim religion.”

As I know you don't speak French, let me translate the gist of the video. It's Parisian citizens walking around Paris' supposed "no-go zones" and making fun of FOX News.

spangledbanner · Feb 28, 2015

Re: Is PEGIDA a racist movement pretending not to be?

The Republican Party is ten times more racist than Pediga. And Yes. Pediga is racist.

spangledbanner · Feb 28, 2015

Re: Is PEGIDA a racist movement pretending not to be?

American conservatives seem to love racist groups like Pediga and EDL.

Serenity · Feb 28, 2015

Re: Is PEGIDA a racist movement pretending not to be?

AmericanSpartan said:
So because he wants to protect his people, culture, values, nation, and their future that makes him "scum" or them "trash"? Wow, very "tolerant" of you.

Anyone who expresses views such as Lutz Bachmann openly has, is indeed trash. You might be happy to be tolerant of racists, i'm not.

Hatuey · Feb 28, 2015

Re: Is PEGIDA a racist movement pretending not to be?

AmericanSpartan said:
Chad, he is the person that hates Western peoples, and the cultures we have created, he thinks that anyone has the right to claim nations, lands, cultures, ect and we are bad for saying "No, this is ours, you will not be allowed in".

What I think of the above post.

chad1389 · Feb 28, 2015

Re: Is PEGIDA a racist movement pretending not to be?

AmericanSpartan said:
That might be the case but I know people like him, they claim we do not own our culture, nations, history, ect....

That is his right to do so. Like I stated, if he doesn't wish to do his own research, that is not my problem.

Infinite Chaos · Feb 28, 2015

Re: Is PEGIDA a racist movement pretending not to be?

Hatuey said:
PEGIDA is a one issue sort of movement. That's why I didn't really group it with parties. Secondly, let's take a look at accusing people of being racist. I'm not, I asked a question based on different 3 key of any organization: It's leadership, it's associations and the reaction from the populace.

Look at the EDL, this started off in the UK because of similar concerns but quickly attracted extremists and fascists looking for a fight. That too was labelled as a racist movement very quickly by establishment figures and its members were also labeled as scum or lowlifes.

the fact it eventually became a racist organisation does not blur that its inception was from a legitimate concern - your 3 keys were similar then and now. Tommy Robinson (who eventually left when Combat 18 and other people infiltrated and kept being put back in) was the leader and widely accused of racism. The EDl was accused of association with racist movements like the BNP despite Tommy Robinson repeatedly stating that he wanted nothing to do with the BNP and similar movements.

As for reactions from the populace, same thing again - media and more "left wing" groups quickly labeled it as scum or racist.

Your key test I'm afraid is invalid. And as a poster you think you discredited accurately pointed out - it has and will attract racists. That is inevitable but so it seems is the equally invalid response you will start to see on this thread and elsewhere to try and paint legitimate concern as extremism.

AmericanSpartan · Feb 28, 2015

Re: Is PEGIDA a racist movement pretending not to be?

Hatuey said:
What I think of the above post.

So you have no point, just posting a video..

Our nations belong to us and are home for one culture, our own, and we have the right and obligation to keep out groups and people who would subvert and destroy our culture, values, and way of life.

Hatuey · Feb 28, 2015

Re: Is PEGIDA a racist movement pretending not to be?

Infinite Chaos said:
Look at the EDL, this started off in the UK because of similar concerns but quickly attracted extremists and fascists looking for a fight. That too was labelled as a racist movement very quickly by establishment figures and its members were also labeled as scum or lowlifes.

It couldn't possibly be because they associate with far right groups and engage in violence. There must be a conspiracy.

the fact it eventually became a racist organisation does not blur that its inception was from a legitimate concern

Sorry... What? Look. My question isn't about whether you believe their concerns are legitimate or not. As a matter of fact, I couldn't care less whether you support or don't support them. My question regards whether they are a racist organization pretending to be something else. As it stands, the leaders of PEGIDA have shown themselves to lean towards being racists. That alone should raise some serious flags about whether the organization is or isn't racist. Do you disagree?

Hatuey · Feb 28, 2015

Re: Is PEGIDA a racist movement pretending not to be?

AmericanSpartan said:
So you have no point, just posting a video..

I'm making fun of your hyperbole meant to get a rise out of me. More importantly, I'm dismissing your absurd fantasies. :shrug:

Is PEGIDA a racist movement pretending not to be?[W:143]

Is PEGIDA a racist movement pretending not to be?

Yes

No

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