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  • I'm a liberal: conservatives are evil

    158 46.88%
  • I'm a conservative: liberals are evil

    3 0.89%
  • I'm a liberal: conservatives aren't evil

    23 6.82%
  • I'm a conservative: liberals aren't evil

    136 40.36%
  • Ban Morality Games

    17 5.04%
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Thread: Liberals and Conservatives: Are adherents of the rival ideology evil?

  1. #71
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    Re: Liberals and Conservatives: Are adherents of the rival ideology evil?

    Quote Originally Posted by eohrnberger View Post
    Crime vs. Hate Crime

    The mugger of white women is a mugger first, as that crime is committed first. I see no need to clog up the already over burdened legal code with special attributes just to make someone else feel better. The legal code isn't there for that purpose. Punish the mugger more to the severe end of the mugger scale, absolutely. In dire need of a special statute special just for muggers of white women? Hardly required.

    We've got 1st degree murder statues. And then we've got 1st degree hate crime murder statues. Both are punishable by life imprisonment. What sort of sense does that make? It's little more than a 'feel good' statute, and utterly pointless. Charge'em with murder, put the punishment at life imprisonment, and be done with it already.
    Interesting position. Why have a "mugger scale" instead of just a theft statute? Why have different laws for embezzlement, shoplifting, fraud? It is just stealing.

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    Re: Liberals and Conservatives: Are adherents of the rival ideology evil?

    Quote Originally Posted by Declan View Post
    Interesting position. Why have a "mugger scale" instead of just a theft statute? Why have different laws for embezzlement, shoplifting, fraud? It is just stealing.
    The motivations against hate crime legislation don't make sense to me. We assign levels of motivations and classifications for every crime under the sun, yet hate crimes somehow don't deserve a category?

  3. #73
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    Re: Liberals and Conservatives: Are adherents of the rival ideology evil?

    Quote Originally Posted by Declan View Post
    Interesting position. Why have a "mugger scale" instead of just a theft statute? Why have different laws for embezzlement, shoplifting, fraud? It is just stealing.
    Execute one and all.

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    Re: Liberals and Conservatives: Are adherents of the rival ideology evil?

    Quote Originally Posted by joG View Post
    Execute one and all.
    Well we can put that in the never gonna happen box in the attic.

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    Re: Liberals and Conservatives: Are adherents of the rival ideology evil?

    Quote Originally Posted by eohrnberger View Post
    Crime vs. Hate Crime

    The mugger of white women is a mugger first, as that crime is committed first. I see no need to clog up the already over burdened legal code with special attributes just to make someone else feel better. The legal code isn't there for that purpose. Punish the mugger more to the severe end of the mugger scale, absolutely. In dire need of a special statute special just for muggers of white women? Hardly required.

    We've got 1st degree murder statues. And then we've got 1st degree hate crime murder statues. Both are punishable by life imprisonment. What sort of sense does that make? It's little more than a 'feel good' statute, and utterly pointless. Charge'em with murder, put the punishment at life imprisonment, and be done with it already.
    "Hate crime". That always makes me pause. As opposed to.....I adore you crime?

    If one of my loved ones is killed, his death is no more horrific if he is killed by someone who hates white men than if he is killed by someone who wants to take his care, wants to get into a gang, wants to piss off his ex-girlfriend, or just because he wants to know what it's like to kill someone.
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  6. #76
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    Re: Liberals and Conservatives: Are adherents of the rival ideology evil?

    Quote Originally Posted by akrunner88 View Post
    The motivations against hate crime legislation don't make sense to me. We assign levels of motivations and classifications for every crime under the sun, yet hate crimes somehow don't deserve a category?
    1st amendment – In Canada we have hate speech laws- Does not seem to be a problem up here.
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  7. #77
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    Re: Liberals and Conservatives: Are adherents of the rival ideology evil?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zinthaniel View Post
    When crimes are assessed by law enforcement, i.e Detectives. A hate crime provides entirely different implications. It is an entirely different crime in of it's self.

    The crime was done solely to attack someone because of their immutable characteristic. The vast majority of these crimes are far more violent than any other crime relative to it's form. I.e mugging someone because they are white will be fueled by hatred. The mugging will be more violent - the mugger will persist longer in the beating than he would if he simply wanted to steal and then flee. They also establish further intent to harm others of that same class.

    That is why they have a special status.
    I see this as a fine description of what a hate crime is, and how hate crime laws are written and how they tend to operate, but not a justification of why they should exist.

    You say so yourself that often those types of crimes are far more violent. Isn't that more sufficient to charge them with the maximum punishment for the crime?

    Quote Originally Posted by akrunner88 View Post
    It all comes down to motivation. I see no reason why we shouldn't recognize the motives for a crime. If you beat someone to a pulp because you want to steal his car, vs. beating someone to a pulp because they are gay, the motivations are different. We prosecute all sorts of crimes based on motivation. This is nothing new.

    No one should suffer criminal acts against them simply for being and that is what hate crimes address, and why the punishment for such crimes is generally higher.
    The motivation. So now the criminal justice system is tasked with seeing into a person's brain and ferret out something as obscure as 'motivation' behind the crime, when they have the physical evidence of the violence of the crime? Why are we wasting time on this peering into people's heads and determining motivation? Why aren't we charging on the easily to discern physical evidence as to the violence of the crime instead?

    Again, I see the hate crime statutes as little more than currying favor of a small-ish segment of the population, promoting that population to protected class, from which even further, and also probably equally unjustified, concession are going to be extracted from the public.

    What happened to equal treatment under the law? Do not even having any protected classes such as this erode this fundamental concept?
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    Re: Liberals and Conservatives: Are adherents of the rival ideology evil?

    Quote Originally Posted by tres borrachos View Post
    "Hate crime". That always makes me pause. As opposed to.....I adore you crime?

    If one of my loved ones is killed, his death is no more horrific if he is killed by someone who hates white men than if he is killed by someone who wants to take his care, wants to get into a gang, wants to piss off his ex-girlfriend, or just because he wants to know what it's like to kill someone.
    You are saying if you had a gay son, you would be just as outraged if he was randomly shot in the parking lot for his car than if he was shot because he was gay? You're definitely a minority then.

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    Re: Liberals and Conservatives: Are adherents of the rival ideology evil?

    Quote Originally Posted by tres borrachos View Post
    "Hate crime". That always makes me pause. As opposed to.....I adore you crime?
    LOL. That's a good one. Granted, a rather morbid subject, but still, always good to inject a bit a humor. Thanks.
    Quote Originally Posted by tres borrachos View Post
    If one of my loved ones is killed, his death is no more horrific if he is killed by someone who hates white men than if he is killed by someone who wants to take his care, wants to get into a gang, wants to piss off his ex-girlfriend, or just because he wants to know what it's like to kill someone.
    Indeed. My point exactly. It's the crime, not the motivation, yet all these hate crimes are geared about the motivation, as another poster pointed out (thanks), which is far less compelling when presented than the physical evidence. It raises all kinds of questions as to 'how did you know that this was the defendant's motivation' for example, and how can one person really know another person's motivation? We have mind reading equipment now?
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  10. #80
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    Re: Liberals and Conservatives: Are adherents of the rival ideology evil?

    Quote Originally Posted by eohrnberger View Post
    I see this as a fine description of what a hate crime is, and how hate crime laws are written and how they tend to operate, but not a justification of why they should exist.

    You say so yourself that often those types of crimes are far more violent. Isn't that more sufficient to charge them with the maximum punishment for the crime?
    hate crime laws are messages sent to those have have extreme beliefs that would otherwise harm entire communities if not abated. Not just unfortunate individuals that are in the wrong place at the wrong time. Someone who is out to harm only white people is a threat to large pool of potential victims. In this instance, if you are white, your not safe no matter where you are or who you are because this person is actively seeking you out to harm you. And the color of you skin is the reason.

    These distinctions are what create the need for these laws. They take into account the action and the terror inflicted on more than just their victim. Someone is killed because they are gay and you have a whole community that is up in flames. Worried if they will be next. The psychological and it's wide spread effect adds onto the crime.

    The point is to provide a very real message. Hate crimes are simply more dangerous. We know that. There is precedence for what happens when someone's hateful actions against immutable characteristics goes unchecked.
    Last edited by Zinthaniel; 02-26-15 at 02:34 PM.
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