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  • I'm a liberal: conservatives are evil

    158 46.88%
  • I'm a conservative: liberals are evil

    3 0.89%
  • I'm a liberal: conservatives aren't evil

    23 6.82%
  • I'm a conservative: liberals aren't evil

    136 40.36%
  • Ban Morality Games

    17 5.04%
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Thread: Liberals and Conservatives: Are adherents of the rival ideology evil?

  1. #191
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    Re: Liberals and Conservatives: Are adherents of the rival ideology evil?

    Quote Originally Posted by joG View Post
    Okay. I see what you mean.

    I would want to venture that the blockade ie the declaration of war was of the "you or me" kind. After that it was possible to discuss a deal of mutual benefit. It was in fact this type of showdown that demonstrated the amount of resolve and willingness to fight that was behind those 50 years of albeit nervous peace.
    Fair enough. I think that is a reasonable characterization of the situation.

  2. #192
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    Re: Liberals and Conservatives: Are adherents of the rival ideology evil?

    Quote Originally Posted by Morality Games View Post
    Its meant to be a zero sum, bottom line question.

    I don't identify enough with either ideology to cast a vote either way; I generally dislike conservatism more but more often than not wind up feeling every person who has ever existed is evil and that ideology is them showing their most evil side: unrelentingly hypocritical, unfailingly self-serving and self-congratulatory, and all round conceited.

    In my better moments, I try to tell myself no one is evil.
    What should I say? I'm a liberal conservative or vice versa or something.

  3. #193
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    Re: Liberals and Conservatives: Are adherents of the rival ideology evil?

    Quote Originally Posted by Peter Grimm View Post
    Some conservatives are honorable. Some are not. It extends beyond ideology.

    At it's root, conservative ideology simply espouses the ideals of personal responsibility, limited government, free markets, individual liberty, traditional American values and a strong national defense.

    At their core, none of those beliefs are inherently good nor evil. What makes them such is the motivation behind the beliefs, and that differs from person to person.
    No argument that different people have different motives. But motives and ideology are not the same thing.

    Your description of conservatism as defined in modern day American is accurate but not necessarily complete. It also allows for social contract to provide cooperation for mutual benefit and also basic social services as deemed necessary by the state or the local community. It rejects authoritarian dictates in such matters, however, and promotes each community forming whatever sort of society it wants to have. It believes any policy that discourages positive values such as liberty, reverence for life, self-reliance, initiative, creativity, family etc.--and too many one-size-fits-all social programs do just that--may be well intended, but will invariably produce that which is harmful, even evil.

    IMO Liberalism as defined in modern day America sees itself as compassionate and caring and that it is populated by smarter, nicer, better people than everybody else. It sees it as righteousness to forcibly take property from those who have it and give that property to others. It speaks a religion of human rights but demands that all do everything the same, use the same politically correct language, and embrace the same causes or else people are deemed unacceptable. It does not appreciate or recognize any positive results of conservatism because it deems the motive unacceptable. It will not consider or even look at the negative consequences of what liberalism does because as long as the motive is right, then whatever they do is deemed virtuous. IMO, this manner of thinking may be well intentioned, but the results are too often evil.
    "I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it." --Benjamin Franklin 1776

  4. #194
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    Re: Liberals and Conservatives: Are adherents of the rival ideology evil?

    The most evil conservative (and often centrist) tendency is support of wars that are primarily motivated by greed or desire for power. Examples include wars waged to gain access to another nation's natural resources or to a nation under the thumb of imperialists. Wars started solely to make one group of people feel safer are also an evil. These types of wars create huge amounts of unnecessary destruction, death, and other misery just to make some people feel better or to save them some money. Of course these wars are justified with more socially acceptable explanations, but people have an obligation to look beyond the propaganda before deciding to start a war.

  5. #195
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    Re: Liberals and Conservatives: Are adherents of the rival ideology evil?

    [QUOTE=JANFU;1064361941]Justice - laws has always been part of what you call morality


    Recall the days of people targeting and hunting down gays for a beating


    Motivation has and is part of the justice system, sometime for leniency, sometime not.

    [QUOTE][*]The level of punishment of the non-hate crime version can easily handle pushing those that inflict greater violence
    How, links, expand upon this please??


    Protected classes, or protecting classes that need it.


    No protecting those that are and can be targets due to a variety of reasons, that the crime was based upon hate. specific hatred.


    I don't think you missed any


    Have not read the complete thread.
    I dispute the need for protected classes to be protected by hate crimes, when the crime remains the same, and further, when the severity of the punishment of that crime can accommodate the just punishment for the crime and the acts of that crime.

    Seems far more likely that the hate crimes are little more than scoring political points with the protected class. There is no need for them.
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  6. #196
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    Re: Liberals and Conservatives: Are adherents of the rival ideology evil?

    Quote Originally Posted by eohrnberger View Post
    I dispute the need for protected classes to be protected by hate crimes, when the crime remains the same, and further, when the severity of the punishment of that crime can accommodate the just punishment for the crime and the acts of that crime.

    Seems far more likely that the hate crimes are little more than scoring political points with the protected class. There is no need for them.
    Just curious - do you feel the same way about separate terrorism statutes? They are the identical principle to hate crime statutes - a hate crime is just one form of terrorism. And I think the motivation is similar - score points with the public, get tough on "hate" or "terrorism."

    I'm a bit conflicted on both of them - there is no doubt that there are different categories of crimes that are correctly called 'terrorism' or 'hate crimes', but the charges put too much discretionary power in the hands of prosecutors.

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    Re: Liberals and Conservatives: Are adherents of the rival ideology evil?

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    Just curious - do you feel the same way about separate terrorism statutes? They are the identical principle to hate crime statutes - a hate crime is just one form of terrorism. And I think the motivation is similar - score points with the public, get tough on "hate" or "terrorism."

    I'm a bit conflicted on both of them - there is no doubt that there are different categories of crimes that are correctly called 'terrorism' or 'hate crimes', but the charges put too much discretionary power in the hands of prosecutors.
    There are different types of terrorism. Domestic terrorism, such as the Oklahoma bombing is clearly a criminal justice matter. Terrorism, as conducted by militant Islamic fundamentalists across national borders, is a military matter.

    For the domestic terrorism, do the current criminal statutes have the ability to enforce and mandate appropriate incarceration? If so, there is also no need for them, if not, perhaps a change to the current criminal statutes is in order.
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    Re: Liberals and Conservatives: Are adherents of the rival ideology evil?

    Quote Originally Posted by eohrnberger View Post
    There are different types of terrorism. Domestic terrorism, such as the Oklahoma bombing is clearly a criminal justice matter. Terrorism, as conducted by militant Islamic fundamentalists across national borders, is a military matter.

    For the domestic terrorism, do the current criminal statutes have the ability to enforce and mandate appropriate incarceration? If so, there is also no need for them, if not, perhaps a change to the current criminal statutes is in order.
    Well that was the question I was asking you. We do have domestic terrorism statutes, and they're pretty vague. From the FBI: FBI — Terrorism Definition

    "Domestic terrorism" means activities with the following three characteristics:

    Involve acts dangerous to human life that violate federal or state law;

    Appear intended (i) to intimidate or coerce a civilian population; (ii) to influence the policy of a government by intimidation or coercion; or (iii) to affect the conduct of a government by mass destruction, assassination. or kidnapping; and

    Occur primarily within the territorial jurisdiction of the U.S.
    My point is if you're against "hate crime" laws, then I find it hard to believe you can support laws against "terrorism." A key part of 'terrorism' prosecutions is the motivation of the criminal, same as "hate crime" laws. A hate crime is simply one form of domestic terrorism. And as I said, I have the same concerns about hate crimes and 'terrorism' charges. I'm undecided, agnostic, on the need and utility of them, and VERY concerned about the potential for abuse.

  9. #199
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    Re: Liberals and Conservatives: Are adherents of the rival ideology evil?

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    Well that was the question I was asking you. We do have domestic terrorism statutes, and they're pretty vague. From the FBI: FBI — Terrorism Definition
    Right, I know that was the question that you were asking, but I don't have an answer on it either.

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    My point is if you're against "hate crime" laws, then I find it hard to believe you can support laws against "terrorism." A key part of 'terrorism' prosecutions is the motivation of the criminal, same as "hate crime" laws. A hate crime is simply one form of domestic terrorism. And as I said, I have the same concerns about hate crimes and 'terrorism' charges. I'm undecided, agnostic, on the need and utility of them, and VERY concerned about the potential for abuse.
    And I accept your point. It's a good point. The position that I stated isn't counter to the point that you were making. In essence, I don't really support either hate crime or terrorism statutes, as you correctly observe, they are founded in the political, rather than in the legal.

    It worries me as well that something such as the terrorism statutes have such vague definitions, and I too see them as being rife for government and prosecutorial abuse.
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    Re: Liberals and Conservatives: Are adherents of the rival ideology evil?

    Quote Originally Posted by Morality Games View Post
    Its meant to be a zero sum, bottom line question.

    I don't identify enough with either ideology to cast a vote either way; I generally dislike conservatism more but more often than not wind up feeling every person who has ever existed is evil and that ideology is them showing their most evil side: unrelentingly hypocritical, unfailingly self-serving and self-congratulatory, and all round conceited.

    In my better moments, I try to tell myself no one is evil.
    Anyone who believes that liberalism or conservatism (and adherents to either) is inherently evil needs to go outside and play.

    PS. We all know now that the polls are being hacked. It's time to stop making them anonymous.

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