View Poll Results: Well?

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  • I'm a liberal: conservatives are evil

    158 46.88%
  • I'm a conservative: liberals are evil

    3 0.89%
  • I'm a liberal: conservatives aren't evil

    23 6.82%
  • I'm a conservative: liberals aren't evil

    136 40.36%
  • Ban Morality Games

    17 5.04%
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Thread: Liberals and Conservatives: Are adherents of the rival ideology evil?

  1. #111
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    Declan's Avatar
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    Re: Liberals and Conservatives: Are adherents of the rival ideology evil?

    Quote Originally Posted by joG View Post
    That is a fine box.
    The box is made from and old persimmon tree felled by beavers and the inlay is polished dodo bird beak.

  2. #112
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    Re: Liberals and Conservatives: Are adherents of the rival ideology evil?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zinthaniel View Post
    My question to you is do you choose to not contemplate that possibility of a nazi soldier who may not have liked what he was doing
    because there is no intellectual logical reason to do so or because you want to stand on principal. I.e "It was a bad thing so I want bother to venture into that possibility.

    If you can accept human mind is complex that you also have to accept that people who do bad things may do things for a wide variety of reasons.

    Some children caught up with bad apples may partake in things they don't feel comfortable with doing but they do anyway because of peer pressure.

    That is a real thing.


    People became NAZIs because they wanted to become NAZIs. If you want to try to make excuses for them that's your problem.

    I won't be helping you with that wasted effort.

  3. #113
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    Re: Liberals and Conservatives: Are adherents of the rival ideology evil?

    Quote Originally Posted by Joe Steel View Post
    You said:



    So, do you think all members of the group "NAZIs" were evil or were some good?
    Here's the problem with that statement: Are you talking about every German who was a National Socialist Party member, every soldier wearing a German uniform, every German (soldier or not) who adhered to all of the National Socialist Party's beliefs or anyone today who willingly and with full agreement to NAZI beliefs wears NAZI ink??

    See, just asking a question that could be interpreted so many ways is simply trying to set me up. Clarify your parameters and we can have a discussion, but I'm not going to get in this game you're trying to play without knowing what the rules are.
    Last edited by faithful_servant; 02-26-15 at 03:42 PM.
    Our nation has not always lived up to its ideals, yet those ideals have never ceased to guide us. They expose our flaws, and lead us to mend them. We are the beneficiaries of the work of the generations before us and it is each generation's responsibility to continue that work. - Laura Bush

  4. #114
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    Re: Liberals and Conservatives: Are adherents of the rival ideology evil?

    Quote Originally Posted by tres borrachos View Post
    If I had a gay son, which I might considering I have 3 sons, and he is killed, it won't be any more horrific that he's killed because he's gay than it would be for any reason. See, I think crimes are horrific on their own. I guess the "majority" thinks crimes aren't horrific on their own.
    That's all true, but I do see a distinction between a random crime of violence and a 'hate' crime. In short, the latter is a form of domestic terrorism, and has the potential at least to instill fear in people who share characteristics of the victim that doesn't happen if the victim was random. That is in fact sometimes the purpose of some 'hate' crimes.

    So in your example, if you're Jewish, and your son was killed because he was Jewish, if you live nearby it's a rational response to believe you or other members of your family are at greater risk than any random member of the community because you or your family members are also Jewish.

  5. #115
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    Re: Liberals and Conservatives: Are adherents of the rival ideology evil?

    Quote Originally Posted by eohrnberger View Post
    Again, clearly dragging a man behind a truck is a heinous crime, and charged with murder, he'll serve life, or he'll be executed (Texas after all), which he richly deserves.

    What's the point in the hate crime murder? You gonna execute him 2 times?

    Or is it to make sure that demands of the black community are met to have such a crime?

    I'm sure that had he dragged to death a white man behind his truck, that he'd have gotten some sort of hate crime charge. Yeah, right.

    So in this case, how is it not that this hate crime law is fundamentally racist and discriminatory? It's clearly giving preferential, protected class status, to someone of a particular race, is it not?
    Quote Originally Posted by eohrnberger View Post
    LOL. That's a good one. Granted, a rather morbid subject, but still, always good to inject a bit a humor. Thanks.


    Indeed. My point exactly. It's the crime, not the motivation, yet all these hate crimes are geared about the motivation, as another poster pointed out (thanks), which is far less compelling when presented than the physical evidence. It raises all kinds of questions as to 'how did you know that this was the defendant's motivation' for example, and how can one person really know another person's motivation? We have mind reading equipment now?

    You made 2 points- I answered 1with a clear case of how it was determined to be a hate crime
    As to supporting hate crime legislation- I do.
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    Not once have I showed my dick to a woman and she thought it was creepy. In fact, in 100% of the cases, they were pretty excited about it. I don't know who you're showing your **** too.

  6. #116
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    Re: Liberals and Conservatives: Are adherents of the rival ideology evil?

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    That's all true, but I do see a distinction between a random crime of violence and a 'hate' crime. In short, the latter is a form of domestic terrorism, and has the potential at least to instill fear in people who share characteristics of the victim that doesn't happen if the victim was random. That is in fact sometimes the purpose of some 'hate' crimes.

    So in your example, if you're Jewish, and your son was killed because he was Jewish, if you live nearby it's a rational response to believe you or other members of your family are at greater risk than any random member of the community because you or your family members are also Jewish.
    If I'm Jewish, and my son is killed because of some stranger randomly mowing him with a gun down for his car, I'll be afraid of being randomly mowed down for my car by some stranger.
    Horse sense is the thing a horse has which keeps it from betting on people. ~W.C. Fields

  7. #117
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    Re: Liberals and Conservatives: Are adherents of the rival ideology evil?

    Quote Originally Posted by Declan View Post
    The box is made from and old persimmon tree felled by beavers and the inlay is polished dodo bird beak.
    Dodo beak is powerful and combine it with persimmon downed by beaver's tooth! Strong, strong magic!

  8. #118
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    Re: Liberals and Conservatives: Are adherents of the rival ideology evil?

    Nobody is inherently evil because of their political bent. I don't think they're evil, I think they are simply misguided.
    There is nothing demonstrably true that religion can provide the world that cannot be achieved more rationally through entirely secular means.

    Blog me! YouTube me! VidMe me!

  9. #119
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    Re: Liberals and Conservatives: Are adherents of the rival ideology evil?

    Quote Originally Posted by JANFU View Post
    You made 2 points- I answered 1with a clear case of how it was determined to be a hate crime
    As to supporting hate crime legislation- I do.
    True you did #1.

    It's clear that you do, and I'm placing no value judgement on whether you do or don't, I'm simply asking for a reasoned justification why the criminal justice system needs to accommodate the ideas of hate crimes when:
    1. Hate being a moral issue, now criminal justice is legislating morality
    2. The only difference between a particular crime and the hate version of that crime is alleged motivation, an indeterminate judgement conclusion and not factual (at least in most cases)
    3. The only difference between a particular crime and the hate version of that crime is the amount of violence and damage
    4. The level of punishment of the non-hate crime version can easily handle pushing those that inflict greater violence
    5. Hate crimes denote protected classes, which in itself is discriminatory at the conceptual level
    6. The creation and designation of some crimes to be hate crimes is little more than playing to psychological appeasement of some


    (Did I miss any?)

    The position being argued is that the definition and existence of hate crimes currently remains unjustified, at least based on the posting in this forum to date.
    Disinformation campaign? The Russian collusion meme pushed by the 'news' media, behaving as a political propaganda organ, hell bent to destroy a legitimately elected president to implement his agenda per the votes of the same electorate. Reference The Big Lie Reference Goebbels

  10. #120
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    Re: Liberals and Conservatives: Are adherents of the rival ideology evil?

    Quote Originally Posted by tres borrachos View Post
    If I'm Jewish, and my son is killed because of some stranger randomly mowing him with a gun down for his car, I'll be afraid of being randomly mowed down for my car by some stranger.
    Yes, of course, but the point is that fear of randomly being mowed down for your car is a generalized fear shared by EVERYONE in your community. But if he's killed because he's Jewish, the crime victim isn't random at all - the victim was chosen because he's Jewish, and the only people who will fear similar violence are other Jews. Your Christian neighbors don't need to worry about it because they're not Jews.

    We personally know a victim of a hate crime, and there is a difference. He is a friend of my wife's and has dark skin. He was attacked by a crazed knife wielding maniac as he sat in a waiting area of a train station, and the motive was that he looked foreign - "This is my (expletive) country. I will kill you." It's changed him and his family in ways that a random crime of violence doesn't because the motive was NOT a random one - he was targeted because of the color of his skin, which is shared by his wife and children. They have a (perceived at least) target on their backs that others who aren't dark skinned simply don't have. AND they have the more generalized fear of random violence.

    And you also need to at least recognize lynching of blacks in the South had as part of the motive the goal of terrorizing blacks. Whites in Alabama simply didn't need to fear being lynched - they were white and the KKK and other white supremacists didn't target whites, or if they did target whites, it was ONLY those whites who sympathized with blacks - e.g. the civil rights workers killed in Mississippi. Those crimes were simply different than random attacks or even random murders - the purpose was to terrorize a segment of the population. They would be obvious 'hate crimes' in the current era.

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