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Who thinks the US military should be replaced with a citizen defensive body?

Should the US military be replaced with a citizen defensive body?

  • Total voters
    68
pinqy said:
If we're nitpicking, the National Guard is part of the militia. Here in Virginia we also have the Virginia Defense Force, which does not go through the same training as federal forces.
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We're talking about a hypothetical federal law, and so the militia in question would be on the federal level. To my knowledge the National Guard Of The United States is the only federal militia.

pinqy said:
Maybe you were in a ridiculous unit on active duty (if you ever were), but that's not true for most.
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It's how my entire battalion works. You can take any complaints you have about that to Obama and his budget cuts.

pinqy said:
And how much of the drill time is spent on actual MOS training as opposed to PT tests, filling out NCOERs, the annual firing range, and all the ridiculous briefings and trainings etc? About half the year you get actual MOS training and practice.
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NCOs show up early to take care of most of the paperwork. All of Saturday is MOS training. The first half of Sunday is PT/nutrition-class. The second half of Sunday are all any death-by-power-point.

pinqy said:
Only if you do the same job as a civilian.
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Most of us do. We're an engineer battalion, we have tons of soldiers with related construction/CDL/firfighter civilian jobs. The few who don't, like cops, still have their place as we're going to absorb MPs into our company over the next 4 years. Remember the L.A. riots? The soldiers who responded to that? They were a headquarters platoon, not infantry. I know because one of them became my reediness NCO.

pinqy said:
What unit did you serve in that only did a 4 hour week?
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I never said '4 hour week'. It's a 4 day week. It's been the standard for the last 5 years.

pinqy said:
And my time active duty we went our time doing vehicle and equipment maintenance, crew drills, basic soldier skills, physical training, etc. All part of the job.
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Then you were in one of the better National Guard units.

pinqy said:
How many civilian 11C or 19K do you know?
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Exactly zero, my state does not maintain infantry at all, unless you count MPs, which are about to be absorbed into engineer companies as their companies are retired.
 
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Jerry said:
Excuse me but the combat medic, 68W, is a tad longer than 2 weeks. Please get your own facts straight befor questioning others.
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Dammnit...I'm getting old...it was a typo...I never said 68W, I meant "combat lifesaver training" which any MOS can take (and I did say any MOS). "Medic" came out instead. I just blanked on the name for some reason.

My point was that in CLS training we were taught how to put in a saline lock and perform a needle decompression to treat pneumothorax; neither of which can be performed by EMTs in some states.
 
pinqy said:
Dammnit...I'm getting old...it was a typo...I never said 68W, I meant "combat lifesaver training" which any MOS can take (and I did say any MOS). "Medic" came out instead. I just blanked on the name for some reason.
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I'm qualified in that, and it's 3 days whereas combat medic is ~16 weeks. CLS not even comparable with a Red Cross First Aid certification a child can take, certainly not the Combat Medic MOS.

pinqy said:
My point was that in CLS training we were taught how to put in a saline lock and perform a needle decompression to treat pneumothorax; neither of which can be performed by EMTs in some states.
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They stopped teaching IVs a few years ago because CLS soldiers were giving people heart attacks. CLS is nothing more than tension pneumothorax, finding and plugging holes, immobilizing limbs, and clearing the airway.
 
Jerry said:
Most of us do. We're an engineer battalion, we have tons of soldiers with related construction/CDL/firfighter civilian jobs.
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And in my Reserve Unit, it's also true that most do a similar job as civilian...but you are talking as if that is universally true...which it's not.


I never said '4 hour week'. It's a 4 day week. It's been the standard for the last 5 years.
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I meant 4 day. And no, it has not been standard in the active duty to have a 4 day week.


Then you were in one of the better National Guard units.
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I was talking about active duty.


Exactly zero, my state does not maintain infantry at all, unless you count MPs, which are about to be absorbed into engineer companies as their companies are retired.
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But you expect that in states that do have combat units that they don't need more than one weekend a month, 2 weeks a year because they'll get their training in their civilian jobs???? Really?

I'll remind you that during the 1980's the concept was that a Division would have 2 line brigades with a third "round-out" brigade from the National Guard to mobilize and deploy with the rest of the Division. At least 3 round-out Brigades failed to deploy in 1990/1991 due to lack of readiness. The round-out concept was dropped.
 
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pinqy said:
I was talking about active duty.
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Right, active duty National Guard: Active Guard Reserve (AGR) Reserve Jobs | goarmy.com

This thread is about militia. The regular Army is not militia. The National Guard is militia. The Air Force is not militia. The Air Guard is militia. The Marine Corps is not militia. The Navy is not militia. The reguler military is always going to have and do more than the militia. That's the way it's always been, that's the way it always will be.

The claim was made that militia receive no training, non at all, and that militia members are not professionals. That is the claim I'm arguing against, and so if you're arguing against me then you are also claiming that militia receive no training and are not professionals.
 
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Jerry said:
I'm qualified in that, and it's 3 days whereas combat medic is ~16 weeks. CLS not even comparable with a Red Cross First Aid certification a child can take, certainly not the Combat Medic MOS.
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I wasn't comparing it to combat medic. Do you have a reading comprehension problem? CLS WAS 2 weeks last time I took it. The refresher course was 3 days.

My point, which apparently went over your head, is that when IVs were taught, and needle decompression....these are techniques NOT TAUGHT to EMTs in many states. The overall point is that no, civilian jobs and MOS training are not always the same or even close.

Let's go further...an EMT cannot do what a 68W is authorized to do (depending on the state) and therefore is not sufficient.


They stopped teaching IVs a few years ago because CLS soldiers were giving people heart attacks. CLS is nothing more than tension pneumothorax, finding and plugging holes, immobilizing limbs, and clearing the airway.
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And you're missing the point.
 
Jerry said:
Right, active duty National Guard: Active Guard Reserve (AGR) Reserve Jobs | goarmy.com

This thread is about militia. The regular Army is not militia. The National Guard is militia.
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Let's go back to what was said:
Thrilla wrote "I said they lack professional training... as in there is a deficiency of professional training compared to that of full time sevicemembers who live and breathe training each and every day of their career." Clearly referring to ACTIVE DUTY members, not AGR.

You replied "Full-timers do not train every single day. I know the media tells you soldiers wake up at zero-freedom-thirty, run 200 miles in 30 seconds, have a bowl of liberty and go kill terrorists all day, but that's not the real world. Having a full-time military job is 90% like having a regular civilian job with a uniform. Full timers get little to no more training than part-timers." there is no way to read that as applying only to AGR.

Not is there any way of knowing that "If you're a full-timer, you work Tuesday through Friday, 08:00-16:30, and unless you're a pencil pusher you'll spend about half that time actually doing your job." was referring to AGR.

But in any case, since you're talking about REPLACING active duty with National Guard, you have to compare the two.
 
Jerry said:
Right, active duty National Guard: Active Guard Reserve (AGR) Reserve Jobs | goarmy.com

This thread is about militia. The regular Army is not militia. The National Guard is militia. The Air Force is not militia. The Air Guard is militia. The Marine Corps is not militia. The Navy is not militia. The reguler military is always going to have and do more than the militia. That's the way it's always been, that's the way it always will be.
But you've been denying that! You've been claiming that pure National Guard would be just as capable as regular military.

The claim was made that militia receive no training, non at all, and that militia members are not professionals. That is the claim I'm arguing against, and so if you're arguing against me then you are also claiming that militia receive no training and are not professionals.
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No, the claim was made that National Guard do NOT receive the same level of continuous training as Active Duty. Which they don't. No one said they received no training at all. It was correctly stated that training goes far beyond Basic and AIT. I learned most of my skills OJT as reality is a lot different than the schoolhouse.

You're being extremely deceptive if you're claiming that when others have been referring to "full timers" they meant AGR and not Active duty military.
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pinqy said:
Let's go back to what was said:
Thrilla wrote "I said they lack professional training... as in there is a deficiency of professional training compared to that of full time sevicemembers who live and breathe training each and every day of their career." Clearly referring to ACTIVE DUTY members, not AGR.
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"Active duty" does not mean "regular Army" because Army reserves are not active duty but are still regular Army. "Active duty" simply referrs to the literal minimum number of hours they log in a given week. "Active duty" does not describe what kind of branch they're in.

pinqy said:
You replied "Full-timers do not train every single day. I know the media tells you soldiers wake up at zero-freedom-thirty, run 200 miles in 30 seconds, have a bowl of liberty and go kill terrorists all day, but that's not the real world. Having a full-time military job is 90% like having a regular civilian job with a uniform. Full timers get little to no more training than part-timers." there is no way to read that as applying only to AGR.
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Active duty National Guard work 4 days per week and do not put in the level of training that active duty reguler Army does.

pinqy said:
But in any case, since you're talking about REPLACING active duty [regular Army] with National Guard, you have to compare the two.
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Not to combat the claim that was made. No comparisons at all, of any kind, need to be made in order to combat the claim that militia receive no training and are not professionals.
 
CRUE CAB said:
You don't pay, attend to, offer continuing employment and medical coverage to slaves.
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Actually slaves can be paid and they can be provided medical treatment by their owners.
 
pinqy said:
Dammnit...I'm getting old...it was a typo...I never said 68W, I meant "combat lifesaver training" which any MOS can take (and I did say any MOS). "Medic" came out instead. I just blanked on the name for some reason.

My point was that in CLS training we were taught how to put in a saline lock and perform a needle decompression to treat pneumothorax; neither of which can be performed by EMTs in some states.
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Just a fair warning. This is Jerry's M.O. He hones in on completely insignificant things that have no relevance to the topic then baits you into arguing about it. I can already summarize his opinion for you: "If you're not a hardcore national guard POG like me you can get the **** out of America because you're not a real American! Hooah!"

Glad to see 99% of DP doesn't want our military watered down with worthless low lives who don't want to be there. You know, more than it already is.
 
the founders had no problem with a standing army, at that time they believed it should consist of about 25,000 to 30,000 men only.

if is impossible to have a citizen army only with modern weapons, training must constantly be done.
 
pinqy said:
But you've been denying that! You've been claiming that pure National Guard would be just as capable as regular military.
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You thought I was talking about the Guard because you and I had different definitions of "active duty". When I said "active duty" you thought I was talking about the regular Army, when in fact I was talking about active duty Guard.

When I was in Afghanistan I was "active duty" and I was still militia, not regular Army. "Active duty" does not mean "regular Army", it only means how many hours you log in a day, it says nothing about what kind of branch you're in.

pinqy said:
No, the claim was made that National Guard do NOT receive the same level of continuous training as Active Duty[regular Army].
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I don't doubt that for a second. Part time Guard recieve all the same combat and MOS training as full-time Guard. Guard receives less training than the regular Army. The Army receives less combat training than the Marine Corps.

pinqy said:
You're being extremely deceptive if you're claiming that when others have been referring to "full timers" they meant AGR and not Active duty military.
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We call the core NCOs and the Capitan "full timers", those same people who work a 4-day week.
 
RabidAlpaca said:
Just a fair warning. This is Jerry's M.O. He hones in on completely insignificant things that have no relevance to the topic then baits you into arguing about it. I can already summarize his opinion for you: "If you're not a hardcore national guard POG like me you can get the **** out of America because you're not a real American! Hooah!"

Glad to see 99% of DP doesn't want our military watered down with worthless low lives who don't want to be there. You know, more than it already is.
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Just because you lost an argument doesn't mean you need to be a sore loser.
 
The United States is not Switzerland. It is not a small country who is surrounded by mountains and who is protected by a host of countries which largely protect the risk of intruders into Switzerland. Tucked in between France, Germany, Italy and Austria and only a limited number of mountain passes into the country, Switzerland is a country with very limited risks.

Also, Switzerland is neutral and does not protect it's citizens abroad or has wars in which it participates to protect it's interest. In all reality is Switzerland a cowards country, it profits from the risks and military expenses from other countries without risking it's own people or money.

If the US would have such a strategy China would rule the world and American companies would always come in second to Chinese or other countries. Not something that is desirable in any way shape or form IMHO, and I am not even American.
 
Peter King said:
The United States is not Switzerland. It is not a small country who is surrounded by mountains and who is protected by a host of countries which largely protect the risk of intruders into Switzerland. Tucked in between France, Germany, Italy and Austria and only a limited number of mountain passes into the country, Switzerland is a country with very limited risks.

Also, Switzerland is neutral and does not protect it's citizens abroad or has wars in which it participates to protect it's interest. In all reality is Switzerland a cowards country, it profits from the risks and military expenses from other countries without risking it's own people or money.

If the US would have such a strategy China would rule the world and American companies would always come in second to Chinese or other countries. Not something that is desirable in any way shape or form IMHO, and I am not even American.
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Not to mention being unofficially covered by the U.S. nuclear umbrella
 
ernst barkmann said:
the founders had no problem with a standing army, at that time they believed it should consist of about 25,000 to 30,000 men only.

if is impossible to have a citizen army only with modern weapons, training must constantly be done.
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If we were to convert to a large militia & small regular Army, the quality and quantity of the resulting training would greatly improve.
 
Montecresto said:
That canard again.

isolationism definition

The doctrine that a nation should stay out of the disputes and affairs of other nations. The United States practiced a policy of isolationism until World War I and did not pursue an active international policy until after World War II. ( See “ entangling alliances with none.”)

The American Heritage® New Dictionary of Cultural Literacy, Third Edition
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:lamo Except, of course, for all those times that it invaded other areas and got into lots of wars with other countries :lol:

A book for anyone who believes that we were isolationist until WWI.
 
CRUE CAB said:
Most people in the military don't fight.
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True, but even in those cases they provide their labor to their employer. If they were forced to provide that labor it would be slavery.
 
Jerry said:
If we were to convert to a large militia, small regular Army, the quality and quantity of the resulting training would greatly improve.
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i agree with the latter, ......but the current situation stills makes our military the best in the world.

by creating a two fold military, you are creating a more sleek well trained, more motived individuals on 1 hand.... but creating as less then motivated, less skilled, trained individuals of the other.

i myself would see problems with the two being able to work together well in early stages of cooperation.... if war broke out.
 
ernst barkmann said:
i agree with the latter, ......but the current situation stills makes our military the best in the world.

by creating a two fold military, you are creating a more sleek well trained, more motived individuals on 1 hand.... but creating as less then motivated, less skilled, trained individuals of the other.

i myself would see problems with the two being able to work together well in early stages of cooperation.... if war broke out.
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Which one accomplishes the goal of making the common person personally feel the pain of a poorly cast vote?
 
Henrin said:
True, but even in those cases they provide their labor to their employer. If they were forced to provide that labor it would be slavery.
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I am forced to pay my bills. Therefore I'm a slave, according to you. And I'm working off debt, so I'm a slave even according to me.

Therefore I have nothing to lose.
 
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