View Poll Results: Does governnent spending produce economic growth?

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  • Yes

    241 68.08%
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    13 3.67%
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    100 28.25%
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Thread: Does governnent spending produce economic growth?

  1. #221
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    Re: Does governnent spending produce economic growth?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fenton View Post
    You DON'T know what your'e talking about, at all.

    Banks will LEND when there's a demand for credit. There's no demand because the economy after 6 years STILL SUCKS.

    Over 80 percent of all the new money created by QE is sitting idle on the books of the FEDERAL RESERVE marked as " excess reserves ".

    It hasn't made it out into the economy because despite what the Obama administration says out economy is still on life support.
    Actually you are the one who doesn't know what he is talking about. This can be very easily demonstrated by the fact that you keep repeating that 80% figure which is, in fact, THE EXCESS RESERVES OF PRIVATE BANKS. IT IS NOT THE FED'S EXCESS RESERVES. So what you are doing, in fact by repeating it, is proving my point that BANKS ARE HOARDING MONEY. In fact, some have suggested that the Fed stop paying the banks interest for the excess reserves they have on deposit at the Fed to force them to loan out the money instead of parking it at the Federal Reserve in this way. There is demand for credit, it's just that the banks have made it much more difficult to obtain credit.

  2. #222
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    Re: Does governnent spending produce economic growth?

    Quote Originally Posted by MildSteel View Post
    Actually you are the one who doesn't know what he is talking about. This can be very easily demonstrated by the fact that you keep repeating that 80% figure which is, in fact, THE EXCESS RESERVES OF PRIVATE BANKS. IT IS NOT THE FED'S EXCESS RESERVES. So what you are doing, in fact by repeating it, is proving my point that BANKS ARE HOARDING MONEY. In fact, some have suggested that the Fed stop paying the banks interest for the excess reserves they have on deposit at the Fed to force them to loan out the money instead of parking it at the Federal Reserve in this way. There is demand for credit, it's just that the banks have made it much more difficult to obtain credit.

    Yes, 80 percent of all the new money created by QE never made it out into the economy.

    Your left wing and childish assessment is that the banks are being " greedy ", that they're hoarding.

    Lets see how much you really know. How much are the banks getting paid in interest on those excess reserves ?

    And NO, the banks didn't make it more difficult to obtain credit, the DEMOCRATS did.

    Look up Dodd Frank and educate yourself.

  3. #223
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    Re: Does governnent spending produce economic growth?

    Quote Originally Posted by MildSteel View Post
    Actually you are the one who doesn't know what he is talking about. This can be very easily demonstrated by the fact that you keep repeating that 80% figure which is, in fact, THE EXCESS RESERVES OF PRIVATE BANKS. IT IS NOT THE FED'S EXCESS RESERVES. So what you are doing, in fact by repeating it, is proving my point that BANKS ARE HOARDING MONEY. In fact, some have suggested that the Fed stop paying the banks interest for the excess reserves they have on deposit at the Fed to force them to loan out the money instead of parking it at the Federal Reserve in this way. There is demand for credit, it's just that the banks have made it much more difficult to obtain credit.
    I suspect that they just can't find enough credit worthy customers.

    Many large corporations have lots of money on hand, so they might not have a need to borrow, and the Great Recession ruined a lot of peoples credit.

    I think that we are just now getting to the point where deliquencies and foreclosures may start to fall off peoples credit report soon, so hopefully home and car sales will start to pick up during the next few years as individual credit scores start to heal themselves.
    Quote Originally Posted by ocean515 View Post
    ...I'm not interested in debating someone who is trolling for an argument....
    Quote Originally Posted by Papa bull View Post
    I see a big problem with the idea that whatever the majority wants is OK.

  4. #224
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    Re: Does governnent spending produce economic growth?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fenton View Post
    Yes, 80 percent of all the new money created by QE never made it out into the economy.

    Your left wing and childish assessment is that the banks are being " greedy ", that they're hoarding.
    No its not a childish assessment. The problem is that you have had a right wing lobotomy that does not permit certain things to register in your brain. What is not registering in this case is the fact that THE MONEY IS THE EXCESS RESERVES OF PRIVATE BANKS THAT THEY HAVE VOLUNTARILY CHOSEN TO PARK AT THE FEDERAL RESERVE INSTEAD OF LENDING IT. THAT IS A FORM OF HOARDING. Now I pity that because of your lobotomized condition you cannot understand that. But don't worry, even the lobotomized can be useful in that their behavior serves as a negative example that should be avoided.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fenton View Post
    And NO, the banks didn't make it more difficult to obtain credit, the DEMOCRATS did.

    Look up Dodd Frank and educate yourself.
    Dodd Frank says that banks can only lend to people who can repay the loan, something they should have been doing in the first place.
    Last edited by MildSteel; 02-25-15 at 05:28 PM.

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    Re: Does governnent spending produce economic growth?

    Quote Originally Posted by imagep View Post
    I suspect that they just can't find enough credit worthy customers.

    Many large corporations have lots of money on hand, so they might not have a need to borrow, and the Great Recession ruined a lot of peoples credit.

    I think that we are just now getting to the point where deliquencies and foreclosures may start to fall off peoples credit report soon, so hopefully home and car sales will start to pick up during the next few years as individual credit scores start to heal themselves.
    Banks have leeway in determining who is credit worthy and who is not. As far as I know there are no laws that say what credit scores a person has to have to get a loan. Some corporations like Apple have plenty of cash, and I don't think they would have a problem getting financing if they wanted it. My point is that lending institutions have, in general, tightened the conditions under which they will grant credit. That is a decision they have made. That is why they hoard money at the Federal Reserve.

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    Re: Does governnent spending produce economic growth?

    Quote Originally Posted by MildSteel View Post
    No it is correct. It is correct because the net effect is the result.
    that is.... not only blatantly incorrect.... it seems almost blatantly stupid.

    If I run a political campaign that succeeds in getting the support of all members of the libertarian party (2%), but loses the support of everyone else (98%), that doesn't mean that the strategy that gained me the libertarian party (effect) support means I will win the election (net effect). The net effects are simply the aggregate of the individual effects ((100-2)<50).

    If I tie you to a tire, and yet you still win a foot race, that doesn't prove that dragging a tire makes you faster. It simply demonstrates that your slower performance is still superior to your unencumbered opponents.

    Similarly, if you increase the supply of dollars, but increasing demand outstrips the effect, that doesn't mean that increasing supply does not represent a reduction in the value of each dollar, it only means that the decreased value in a high demand atmosphere is still net higher than the per-dollar value was previously.

    It's just like when I purchase inventory for my business, a superficial observation would be that I have lost money. But that observation is superficial only because what I have done is to profit from the difference in what I paid for the merchandise and what I sold it for.
    ....firstly, your model is incorrect because it simply assumes sale. Secondly, I do not see how your model is an effective analogy.

    No there is no effect of devaluation when such activity is partly responsible for the greater effects. In other words if the government did not print the money and instead just let the entire economy collapse, which is what Hank Paulson scared the hell out of people with, then the money would have no value at all.
    you are referencing a particular incident in which the effect of printing may have been beneficial.

    Which does not in any way whatsoever impact the point that we are talking about, where all government expenditures represent wealth that they have gotten from somewhere. That government expenditures of funds gained through printing may be beneficial is no different in that regard than the fact that government expenditure of funds gained through taxation can be beneficial. There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch.
    Last edited by cpwill; 02-25-15 at 06:42 PM.

  7. #227
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    Re: Does governnent spending produce economic growth?

    Quote Originally Posted by imagep View Post
    When the government spends money of stuff like the military, roads, etc.

    That money ends up in the private sector.
    Sure. Not, as you said, immediately, however.

    But I asked you to define public expenditures. Are you saying it is "when the government spends money on stuff"?

  8. #228
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    Re: Does governnent spending produce economic growth?

    Quote Originally Posted by MildSteel View Post
    Banks have leeway in determining who is credit worthy and who is not. As far as I know there are no laws that say what credit scores a person has to have to get a loan. Some corporations like Apple have plenty of cash, and I don't think they would have a problem getting financing if they wanted it. My point is that lending institutions have, in general, tightened the conditions under which they will grant credit. That is a decision they have made. That is why they hoard money at the Federal Reserve.
    Aside from subprime mortgages, do you have any evidence (links) to prove this?
    Quote Originally Posted by ocean515 View Post
    ...I'm not interested in debating someone who is trolling for an argument....
    Quote Originally Posted by Papa bull View Post
    I see a big problem with the idea that whatever the majority wants is OK.

  9. #229
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    Re: Does governnent spending produce economic growth?

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    Sure. Not, as you said, immediately, however.

    But I asked you to define public expenditures. Are you saying it is "when the government spends money on stuff"?
    It's pretty darned immediate. We all either spend/save/invest our money just as fast as we get it.
    Quote Originally Posted by ocean515 View Post
    ...I'm not interested in debating someone who is trolling for an argument....
    Quote Originally Posted by Papa bull View Post
    I see a big problem with the idea that whatever the majority wants is OK.

  10. #230
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    Re: Does governnent spending produce economic growth?

    Quote Originally Posted by American View Post
    The question is not whether it produces economic growth, the question is....is it the most efficient way to produce economic growth?
    Exactly. because government expenditures are included in the measure of gdp, of course government expenditures produce growth. However the multiplier effect of a government dollar spent is substantially less that the multiplier effect produced by a private sector expenditure.

    http://mercatus.org/sites/default/fi...%20%282%29.pdf
    Last edited by johndylan1; 02-25-15 at 10:34 PM.
    "It is only when men contemplate the greatness of God that they can come to realize their own inadequacy." Jean Calvin

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