View Poll Results: Would ISIS exist today if Saddam Hussein was still in power?

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Thread: Would ISIS exist today if Saddam Hussein was still in power?

  1. #141
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    Re: Would ISIS exist today if Saddam Hussein was still in power?

    Quote Originally Posted by jamesrage View Post
    1.China's support of the north Koreans in the Korean war.
    2.China's support of the Vietcong in the Vietnam war.
    3.China threatening our Japanese ally.



    Unless everyone on the anti-war side is Mistress Cleo then the anti-war side could only speculate.
    Lol, I thought we nuked Japan.

    What makes you think the North Koreans and the Chinese were bad guys in the Korean War? And again in the Vietnam war?
    Killing one person is murder, killing 100,000 is foreign policy

  2. #142
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    Re: Would ISIS exist today if Saddam Hussein was still in power?

    Quote Originally Posted by Objective Voice View Post
    I think most people rightly interpret the poll question as "Would ISIS exist in Iraq today if Saddam was still in power?"

    But from a literal interpretation, you are correct. ISIS, formerly known as Jama'at al-Tawhid wal-Jihad, certainly did exist even while Saddam was alive and ruling Iraq. However, I seriously doubt they'd ever have gained any traction in Iraq if Saddam was still ruling that country today.
    Hey, I make that point on a regular basis. Expand that, if Hussein, Mubarak, Gaddafi and Assad were still in power and control, then these freaks wouldn't be running around the whole region, conducting their crimes.
    Killing one person is murder, killing 100,000 is foreign policy

  3. #143
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    Re: Would ISIS exist today if Saddam Hussein was still in power?

    Quote Originally Posted by Objective Voice View Post
    No.

    Terrorist didn't exist in Iraq while Saddam was in power. Extortion and outright brutality from Iraqi government lapdogs maybe, but not terrorism
    In fact, terrorism did exist under Saddam and he did indeed support terrorists.


    .National Commission on Terrorist Attacks Upon the United States


    I disagree.

    Saddam's had a decent national defense system in place even after Operation Desert Storm. They couldn't contend with the overwhelming military force we unleashed upon them, but they certainly had the ability to put down any rebellion within its borders and had its military in the north that would have repelled any northern aggression. Of course, he may have let the Kurds get slaughtered, but there's no way he would have let any outside invaders come into Iraq. It would explain why no other country except the US had every invaded Iraq under Saddam's watch.

    Now, I agree with you that the no-fly zone that the UN imposed would have been a problem for him, but I think he would have ignored it if Syrian air craft came south to attack his country. He certainly had the air power to repel them.
    1) The Iraqis that made up the army then are the same Iraqis that make it up now.

    2) Syrian aircraft wouldn't have invaded the no fly zone.

    3) ISIS didn't use aircraft when they invaded Iraq.

    4) Any Iraqi aircraft to enter the no fly zone would have been shot down.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

  4. #144
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    Re: Would ISIS exist today if Saddam Hussein was still in power?

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    In fact, terrorism did exist under Saddam and he did indeed support terrorists.


    .National Commission on Terrorist Attacks Upon the United States
    It's okay...I corrected myself. (See post #137)

    1) The Iraqis that made up the army then are the same Iraqis that make it up now.
    Same citizens, different skill levels (i.e., military discipline). Not the same "Iraqi Army" at all.

    2) Syrian aircraft wouldn't have invaded the no fly zone.
    Then what was your point with taking the conversation in that direction?

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst
    A better question would be: would Saddam Hussein have prevented ISIS from coming into existence and the answer is, no. There's no way he could have prevented a rebellion in Syria. There's no way he could have stopped an ISIS invasion of Iraq, since he couldn't move his forces into the no-fly zone to engage them.
    You blend the two issues - Syrian rebels form ISIS, ISIS forces invade Iraq from the air from Syria. How is that possible when you yourself said "Syrian aircraft wouldn't have invaded the no fly zone" and ISIS was formed in Iraq? (Or atleast the ISIS that spun off from AIQ anyway.)

    3) ISIS didn't use aircraft when they invaded Iraq.
    ISIS didn't invade Iraq. They were formed as a reconstituted brand of Al-Queda that was already operating in Iraq.

    4) Any Iraqi aircraft to enter the no fly zone would have been shot down.
    Okay, by whom? US-led NATO forces or the Syria airforce you claim wouldn't have entered the no-fly zone?
    Last edited by Objective Voice; 02-23-15 at 06:03 PM.
    "A fair exchange ain't no robbery." Tupac Shakur w/Digital Underground

  5. #145
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    Re: Would ISIS exist today if Saddam Hussein was still in power?

    Quote Originally Posted by Objective Voice View Post
    It's okay...I corrected myself. (See post #137)



    Same citizens, different skill levels (i.e., military discipline). Not the same "Iraqi Army" at all.
    Link?



    Then what was your point with taking the conversation in that direction?
    I never said anything about Syrian aircraft entering Iraqi airspace.



    [Quoute]You blend the two issues - Syrian rebels form ISIS, ISIS forces invade Iraq from the air from Syria. How is that possible when you yourself said "Syrian aircraft wouldn't have invaded the no fly zone" and ISIS was formed in Iraq? (Or atleast the ISIS that spun off from AIQ anyway.)
    I can't say it enough: I never said anything about Syrian aircraft entering Iraqi airspace. You brought that up.



    ISIS didn't invade Iraq. They were formed as a reconstituted brand of Al-Queda that was already operating in Iraq.

    ISIS invaded Iraq from Syria. That last June, when we had a chance to lay waste to them, while they were in the open.


    Northern Iraq offensive (June 2014) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Okay, by whom? US-led NATO forces or the Syria airforce you claim wouldn't have entered the no-fly zone?
    Are familiar with the no-fly zone?

    Iraqi no-fly zones - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

  6. #146
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    Re: Would ISIS exist today if Saddam Hussein was still in power?

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    I can't say it enough: I never said anything about Syrian aircraft entering Iraqi airspace.
    No, you didn't. At least not in those exact words. But when you said this...

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst
    A better question would be: would Saddam Hussein have prevented ISIS from coming into existence and the answer is, no. There's no way he could have prevented a rebellion in Syria. There's no way he could have stopped an ISIS invasion of Iraq, since he couldn't move his forces into the no-fly zone to engage them.[/B]
    ...you assume that the Syrian rebels would have sided with ISIS while Saddam was in power. Let's not forget that Syrian civil war didn't begin until 2011 long after Saddam was killed. Furthermore, when you leave things as convoluted like the section of your post above, it's easy for things to be misinterpreted. In this case, since ISIS was essentially "home grown" in Iraq (again, long after Saddam was gone) and the only outside aggressors that could have possibly come into Iraq from the north-west through the no-fly zone were Syrian fighters, you're either talking about Iraq repelling a ground invasion from the air OR both sides facing each other in air combat. Which is it? Be specific and then perhaps people can understand you better. Don't (purposely) leave things so convoluted.

    You brought that up.
    Yes, I did. But now that I've explained why would you be so kind as to clarify your position on Iraqi's use of air power through the no-fly zone?

    ISIS invaded Iraq from Syria. That last June, when we had a chance to lay waste to them, while they were in the open.
    Which goes back to my previous point. ISIS in Syria didn't exist while Saddam was in power any more than they existed in Iraq at the time.
    "A fair exchange ain't no robbery." Tupac Shakur w/Digital Underground

  7. #147
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    Re: Would ISIS exist today if Saddam Hussein was still in power?

    Quote Originally Posted by pbrauer View Post
    No
    Yes
    Other
    No, then again it wouldnt exist if we hadnt ****ed up the occupation and armed them, nor would it exist if the British and French had left the region in a better state after the end of the mandate system, nor would it exist if Iraqs parliamentary democracy hadnt been overthrown in the 1950s (nor Syrias for that matter) This doesnt mean dictatorial rule was or is the only viable option for the region.

  8. #148
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    Re: Would ISIS exist today if Saddam Hussein was still in power?

    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    In Syria, they would exist. So whose side were we supposed to take, Assad allied with Iran or with ISIS?
    Armed opposition in Syria consists of up to 1200 different groups (many of whom are at war with each other) thats plenty to choose from.

  9. #149
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    Re: Would ISIS exist today if Saddam Hussein was still in power?

    Quote Originally Posted by Montecresto View Post
    . With Hussein, Mubarak Gaddafi and Assad, we had containment. Those figures are absent, and with that is the direct correlation in the rise of Islamic extremism.
    You also have containment with pressure cookers, albiet to a finite extent

  10. #150
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    Re: Would ISIS exist today if Saddam Hussein was still in power?

    Quote Originally Posted by Red_Dave View Post
    You also have containment with pressure cookers, albiet to a finite extent
    Yes, but before you remove the lid, you allow the pot to cool off.
    Killing one person is murder, killing 100,000 is foreign policy

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