View Poll Results: Should Israel be required to sign the NPT

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Thread: Should Israel be required to sign the NPT? [W:348]

  1. #331
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    re: Should Israel be required to sign the NPT? [W:348]

    Quote Originally Posted by Apocalypse View Post
    He was responsible for not acting to stop a massacre committed by another party at one time, and for being irresponsible on another.
    Not of war crimes on his own. So delusional it is.
    The notion that he did not act to stop a massacre is an interpretation of the evidence. The evidence could be interpreted such that he deliberately sent the Phalangist militias in to massacre innocent civilians. It is not delusional to interpret the facts in that way. Of course, because of your irrational bias, you will refuse to acknowledge that.

    Furthermore, that is not the only war crime that Sharon could be legitimately accused of.

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    re: Should Israel be required to sign the NPT? [W:348]

    To anyone interested, here is verbatim from the Kahan Commission report

    It is true that no clear warning Was provided by military intelligence or the Mossad about what might happen if the Phalangist forces entered the camps, and we will relate to this matter when we discuss the responsibility of the director of Military Intelligence and the head of the Mossad. But in our view, even without such warning, it is impossible to justify the Minister of Defense's disregard of the danger of a massacre. We will not repeat here what we have already said above about the widespread knowledge regarding the Phalangists' combat ethics, their feelings of hatred toward the Palestinians, and their leaders' plans for the future of the Palestinians when said leaders would assume power. Besides this general knowledge, the Defense Minister also had special reports from his not inconsiderable [number of] meetings with the Phalangist heads before Bashir's assassination.
    To say he disregarded it is a generous interpretation towards Sharon. That is the very least one could conclude. One could also conclude that he sent them in deliberately to massacre innocent people. That is not a delusional interpretation.

    But again, that is not the subject of this thread. That issue has been beat in the ground many times.

  3. #333
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    re: Should Israel be required to sign the NPT? [W:348]

    Quote Originally Posted by MildSteel View Post
    The evidence could be interpreted such that he deliberately sent the Phalangist militias in to massacre innocent civilians.
    That is utter nonsense.

    Furthermore, that is not the only war crime that Sharon could be legitimately accused of.
    Only in two accidents was he acting inappropriately, at one time he was found at fault for not intervening and precluding a massacre and at another he was being irresponsible. Neither were war crimes. Delusional it is.
    "The darkest places in hell are reserved for those who maintain their neutrality in times of moral crisis."

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    re: Should Israel be required to sign the NPT? [W:348]

    Quote Originally Posted by Apocalypse View Post
    That is utter nonsense.
    Like I said, irrational bias. I can understand the generous interpretation, but to say the notion is utter nonsense, sorry. There is simply no point in this discussion, but I knew that going in from past experience. Carry on.

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    re: Should Israel be required to sign the NPT? [W:348]

    Any rate, if the world is going to make serious efforts towards non-proliferation some sort of mechanism is going to have to be found to get some sort of handle on those states, like Israel, that have nuclear weapons but are not a party to the NPT. In Israel's case, there is a case to be made that they had the weapons before the NPT. What to be done about India and Pakistan, I don't know. North Korea's arsenal is small and in my opinion they would get rid of them if they were simply properly integrated in the the world economic and financial system.

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    re: Should Israel be required to sign the NPT? [W:348]

    Quote Originally Posted by MildSteel View Post
    Like I said, irrational bias. I can understand the generous interpretation, but to say the notion is utter nonsense, sorry. There is simply no point in this discussion, but I knew that going in from past experience. Carry on.
    It's the fourth time now you've been demonstrating that you would call anyone who does not approve of you distorting the truth in a baseless manner "biased". You thus lack the credibility to be taken seriously. Good for you. There is no point in discussing baseless claims I will agree with that, so once you have something that doesn't fall under that definition that will be quite refreshing. Stick to the truth or continue being irrelevant; fully up to you.
    "The darkest places in hell are reserved for those who maintain their neutrality in times of moral crisis."

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    re: Should Israel be required to sign the NPT? [W:348]

    Quote Originally Posted by Apocalypse View Post
    It's the fourth time now you've been demonstrating that you would call anyone who does not approve of you distorting the truth in a baseless manner "biased".
    No it's not a matter of approving of me distorting the truth. Neither is it a matter of approving of what I said. It is a matter of viewing facts and how they can be interpreted. It would be one thing to say that the interpretation that Sharon deliberately sent the Phalangists in is not necessarily true. It would be one thing to say that such an interpretation is flawed. But it is biased and irrational to say that it is utter nonsense, because that is a rational interpretation of the facts. The facts are that Sharon gave the order for them to go in. That is an indisputable fact. It is also an indisputable fact that the Kahan report has stated that Sharon knew full well that it was dangerous to send the Phalangists in but that he did so anyway. Putting those two FACTS together, namely that he gave the order to send them in and that the commission felt he knew the danger, it is rational to conclude that he could have done it on purpose. That is a rational, reasonable conclusion. To say that it is utter nonsense is irrational bias. It has nothing to do with approving of me distorting the truth. That is a distortion that has been created by your mind.
    Last edited by MildSteel; 02-21-15 at 11:59 AM.

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    re: Should Israel be required to sign the NPT? [W:348]

    Quote Originally Posted by MildSteel View Post
    It would be one thing to say that the interpretation that Sharon deliberately sent the Phalangists in is not necessarily true. It would be one thing to say that such an interpretation is flawed. But it is biased and irrational to say that it is utter nonsense, because that is a rational interpretation of the facts. The facts are that Sharon gave the order for them to go in. That is an indisputable fact. It is also an indisputable fact that the Kahan report has stated that Sharon knew full well that it was dangerous to send the Phalangists in but that he did so anyway. Putting those two FACTS together, namely that he gave the order to send them in and that the commission felt he knew the danger, it is rational to conclude that he could have done it on purpose. That is a rational, reasonable conclusion. To say that it is utter nonsense is irrational bias. It has nothing to do with approving of me distorting the truth. That is a distortion that has been created by your mind.
    Listen to yourself; "rational to conclude he could have done it on purpose". It's ridiculous. You've asserted that he had done it on purpose, that he is a war criminal, while you haven't based the assertion at all. Sure you claim that the assertion is based by bringing up the fact that he let them go in (given) and bringing up another claim that he knew it was dangerous (not given). One simply cannot draw a conclusion from those two facts that he wanted them to murder and massacre innocents and that he sent them in with the desire or hope that they would do so. The only war criminals in this case were thus obviously the Phalangists. Yet you distort the truth by making a baseless assertion - and as long as it isn't proven then hell yeah it's baseless - and claiming that anyone who calls out the nonsense in it is "biased". Ridiculous.
    "The darkest places in hell are reserved for those who maintain their neutrality in times of moral crisis."

    Dante Alighieri

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    re: Should Israel be required to sign the NPT? [W:348]

    Quote Originally Posted by Apocalypse View Post
    So you admit that you've twisted his words to suit your antisemitic agenda to portrayal Jews as Nazis. Good for you.
    That's not what I said, it appears your the one twisting things for your own agenda. By any estimation, the Jews should be the last people imprisoning and oppressing anybody. One would think that they knew the lessons of its horror more than any other people. Fascinating that you excuse prison camps for Palestinians due to your selfish hatred and bigotry towards the more indigenous people's of the land that the occupiers now hold siege to these last seven decades. What a pathetic position you occupy.
    Killing one person is murder, killing 100,000 is foreign policy

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    re: Should Israel be required to sign the NPT? [W:348]

    Quote Originally Posted by Apocalypse View Post
    Yet you distort the truth by making a baseless assertion
    Oh no. I based it on two indisputable facts. And although we are off the subject matter of this thread, we could talk about it some more. You see this isn't the only time Sharon has been responsible for a massacre of innocent women and children. Consider this

    The Qibya massacre, known in Israel as Operation Shoshana, and also known as the Qibya incident, was a reprisal operation that occurred in October 1953 when Israeli troops under Ariel Sharon attacked the village of Qibya in the West Bank. At least sixty-nine Palestinian Arab villagers, two-thirds of them women and children, were killed.
    You see if you really want to start to get into it, it's one of those things that forms a pattern of behavior. And we could go on and on about Mr Sharon and his grotesque history of violence towards innocent people. Indeed their is ample good, rational reason to view him as a butcher and a war criminal.

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