View Poll Results: Should Israel be required to sign the NPT

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Thread: Should Israel be required to sign the NPT? [W:348]

  1. #161
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    re: Should Israel be required to sign the NPT? [W:348]

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteEU View Post
    The US is the only nation to use the weapons.
    That is a lame argument.
    The full scope of there use and why they should only be a weapon of last resort was not known at the time.
    “The law is reason, free from passion.”
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    re: Should Israel be required to sign the NPT? [W:348]

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteEU View Post
    .. American citizens could do a dose of reality as well these days.

    Tell me, why should any European trust what America or Israel says or does?...
    You shouldn't. If you do, you will get from us exactly what you deserve.

  3. #163
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    re: Should Israel be required to sign the NPT? [W:348]

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteEU View Post
    Allies are equals. Europe has never been treated as equals and when they forced the issue, then the US called countries like France and Germany as disloyal and all that bull****. Just look at when the UK pulled out of Iraq, how the attitude towards the UK suddenly changed overnight. They went from being key competent allies to being incompetent baffons.. classy.

    As I stated.. trust has to be earned and gained. It can also easily be lost. The "special relationship" with the UK is only as special as long as the UK is in the EU.. that has been US policy since Reagan when Thatcher threatened to leave.. it is no different today. Is that a real ally or a bully in a so called complicated marriage?

    So I ask again, why trust Israel or the US with nukes more than other countries? Should there not be equal standards on the subject?
    What do you mean by "equals" in this context?

    As far as Germany and France helping Putin steep the game towards an invasion of Iraq, it was indeed a an act not of "disloyalty", but of callousness and/or enmity. A lot of people do not understand enough about negotiation and game theories to have picked that up, believing in, what is said and not looking behind the words for effects and intent. But one would come to understand that, were they to do the maths on the situation back then. Most are too lazy, however, or to little educated.
    But you are right that some in the US misinterpreted Schröder/Chirac to have been "disloyal" instead of just understanding that that is the nature of the scorpion. You just have to keep an eye on nations. They tend to be loose cannons.

    Where you would be right, if we had a system of robust and believably general security enforcement with r2p at the global level with the appropriate legal recourse and all that, we should have general standards of weaponry. But that is something that would only be logically consistent under those circumstances. Until countries are willing to stop free riding and initiate, maintain and pay for that type of system it would only make the world more dangerous. Lots of people argue the way you do. But that is always from a position with no responsibility for international security for themselves or others and where the security is paid for by others.

    Denmark BTW is not the worst offender in this, but are one of the free riders and does not honor its treaty spending obligations nor has it for very many years.

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    re: Should Israel be required to sign the NPT? [W:348]

    Quote Originally Posted by OrphanSlug View Post
    Required by who and what would the benefit of the requirement be?

    Since we are talking about the UN nations here we have to evaluate the "resolution request" and its origin (which was not offered as a requirement.) What we are really talking about here is a resolution that started with Egypt that has plenty of Arab nation support.

    The main problem is it becomes dubious to suggest Israel is the sole problem as to why others in the middle east (and extended areas around) are pursuing the development of nuclear weapons. Primarily, India and Pakistan have not signed the agreement either and they both have them. Secondary, we have question on Iran's interests. Lastly, we are not so sure we can trust Syria in the long run.

    The other problem is the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons is inherently flawed. India argued this best, and it goes to the core of why the UN itself is flawed. The agreement basically condones a group of nations to have nuclear weapons and a larger group that does not. To restrict the development and possession of nuclear weapons argues that we trust those nations with them far more than the others, and as such the treaty is discriminatory and not universal in handling all those that sign it. That means there is no such thing as "balance and order" to the possession of these weapons that the treaty claims. We need to start being honest about this, either we all have them with some sort of international safeguard or no one has them at all. The treaty does not accomplish either, nor can it as designed from origination through implementation as of today.

    Because of these concerns there is no real benefit to the region for Israel to subject themselves to the "safeguards" of the UN's International Atomic Energy Agency given these flaws. I would even go so far as to suggest the US leave the resolution, clearly our international opposition is suspect no matter what the disposition of the agreement is around the globe. But for Israel, it creates a level of bureaucracy that Israel would have to deal with some of it's strongest enemies that would be associated to that bureaucracy via this flawed agreement. In this case I can clearly see the argument Israel would have about putting their stockpile under international supervision.

    The other thing to keep in mind is how this latest round of using the NPT has played out. Not surprisingly the US voted against the measure, Canada on the other hand voting against it was a bit of a surprise.
    So basically your contention is that Israel should not sign it because it is flawed. So do you think the world should try to do anything about the proliferation of nuclear weapons other than to keep nations that might be hostile to Israel and/or the U.S. from having them?

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    re: Should Israel be required to sign the NPT? [W:348]

    Quote Originally Posted by radcen View Post
    If by "useless" you mean that they're only worth the paper they're written on, and that people/countries are sometimes prone to break agreements, then yes.

    The human species is not practical, btw. It's a nice thought, but it ain't so.
    What I meant was do you think nuclear NON proliferation is practical? If you understood me properly and that's your response, it appears you feel that there is nothing the world should try to do about the proliferation of nuclear weapons except to let nations do whatever is in their power to keep other nations that are hostile to their interests from having them.

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    re: Should Israel be required to sign the NPT? [W:348]

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    Context is important.
    The same can be said of Iran.

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    re: Should Israel be required to sign the NPT? [W:348]

    Quote Originally Posted by Excon View Post
    There is no hypocrisy.
    Wrong

    Quote Originally Posted by Excon View Post
    The two are not even comparable.
    That is a moronic response. Do you know what a comparison is?

    Quote Originally Posted by Excon View Post
    Stop the exaggerations.
    No one spit in our face.
    Another moronic response.

    Quote Originally Posted by Excon View Post
    There is no hypocrisy.
    Wrong again.

    Quote Originally Posted by Excon View Post
    That would be your baloney.
    What? Another moronic response.

  8. #168
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    re: Should Israel be required to sign the NPT? [W:348]

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteEU View Post
    Why should we? The US is the only nation to use the weapons. Israel has sold its tech to a hostile racist country. Why on earth should we trust them any more than Iran or North Korea? The US and Israel spies on us.. assassinates and kidnaps people on our streets. When was the last time the UK or France or Germany were caught in killing people in the US or Israel?
    If you believe that the UK, France and Germany do not spy on other nations you are being ridiculous, and even more ridiculous is the fact that you remember the use of nuclear weapons during WWII by the US - should I remind you what some in Europe have done at the same time? Seriously, if anyone can't talk about historical morality it's the Europeans.

    There is a different between blind trust as you want, and quite scepticism and alert-fullness that Europe is moving more and more towards. Trust has to be earned, and that trust there once was started to be seriously erode when Bush came to power and ever since even under Obama.

    Where the hell have I said I speak for the west? My opinion are quite mainstream all across Europe, especially since the whole NSA surveillance issue. For decades we were taught to trust and admire the US and what it stands for, but since the fall of the wall we have gain our independence once again and started to question the validity of what we learned.. American citizens could do a dose of reality as well these days.

    Tell me, why should any European trust what America or Israel says or does? We barely trust our own governments..
    There's a huge difference between not trusting America and Israel in general and not trusting America and Israel over backwards, dark regimes such as Iran and North Korea.
    I don't have to explain to you how ridiculous that notion is. And I don't believe you represent the mainstream European opinion. Not saying that Europeans are all pro-American, pro-Israeli folk but not all of them engage the issue with such hateful passion that you choose to engage it with. We have more than enough European posters here and yet only one European poster whose opinion I can always predict with 100% accuracy.
    It is also not true because unlike you European leaders clearly show that they do not wish to see an Iranian or North Korean nuclear capability. They clearly understand that such a situation is a risk to themselves as well, and not just to Israel or just to the US.
    Last edited by Apocalypse; 02-19-15 at 09:15 AM.
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    re: Should Israel be required to sign the NPT? [W:348]

    The U.S. needs to stop shielding and funding Israel. It's simply not worth it.

  10. #170
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    re: Should Israel be required to sign the NPT? [W:348]

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteEU View Post
    Hell yes.. since the west almost "requires" countries like Iran and Pakistan to sign up, then why not Israel? After all Israel has actually sold nuclear tech to a hostile nation.. Iran and Pakistan has not..
    You know this how?
    "He who does not think himself worth saving from poverty and ignorance by his own efforts, will hardly be thought worth the efforts of anybody else." -- Frederick Douglass, Self-Made Men (1872)
    "Fly-over" country voted, and The Donald is now POTUS.

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